Independent and Tramp Traders

SJLee wrote:Let me see if I can synthesize some of the replies.

There seems to be some suggestion that there are smaller freighters operating in the Honorverse that hasn't really been specifically explored until CS2. Given the marginal nature of the Hali Sowle it's probably fair to say that it might represent one margin, it has a tiny crew, it was literally a pile of scrap that was saved for a brief mission.

Costs and crew size are relatively fixed, in a way. The only way to get beneath say 30 crew would be to run risks, or automate, which would cost more. The average tramp is probably owned by parent company to cover the initial cost, which is in the 10s, or 100s of millions M$. Independent traders would either have to be quite wealthy or well-connected, or inherit their ship.

I wonder what type of ships were going around the Rembrandt Trade Union before Lynx. The Partner Captains were probably operating smaller freighters.

It seems like some of the elements of the Honoverse make the traditional depiction of "Space Truckers" in science fiction very rare.

kzt wrote:

SJLee wrote:Let me see if I can synthesize some of the replies.

There seems to be some suggestion that there are smaller freighters operating in the Honorverse that hasn't really been specifically explored until CS2. Given the marginal nature of the Hali Sowle it's probably fair to say that it might represent one margin, it has a tiny crew, it was literally a pile of scrap that was saved for a brief mission.

Costs and crew size are relatively fixed, in a way. The only way to get beneath say 30 crew would be to run risks, or automate, which would cost more. The average tramp is probably owned by parent company to cover the initial cost, which is in the 10s, or 100s of millions M$. Independent traders would either have to be quite wealthy or well-connected, or inherit their ship.

I wonder what type of ships were going around the Rembrandt Trade Union before Lynx. The Partner Captains were probably operating smaller freighters.

It seems like some of the elements of the Honoverse make the traditional depiction of "Space Truckers" in science fiction very rare.

I think you underestimate the cost. All the freighter prices we have are in the many hundred of millions M$, ranging to a couple of billion. You might get an old piece of junk that is a century old with a needed maintenance list that is pages long and is only space-worthy if you have a death wish for that, but nodes still cost enormous amounts of money to replace when they wear out.

The smallest freighter noted in the books seems to be a million tons, and David has mentioned that ships that small are fairly rare. Can't find that off-hand, but here's a comment on freighter size.

"Nor, for that matter, did Pirates' Bane. At around five million tons, the freighter was of little more than average size for most regions of space, although she did tend towards the upper end of the tonnage range here in Silesia."

Jonathan_S wrote:The operational costs per ton of cargo should drop quickly in a larger design, so economics tend to push for the largest practical freighter. (Though routes using busy wormholes might push back against that if the tolls strongly penalize ships large enough to cause delays due to destabilizing the wormhole longer than the normal transit interval between ships)

Michael Everett wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The operational costs per ton of cargo should drop quickly in a larger design, so economics tend to push for the largest practical freighter. (Though routes using busy wormholes might push back against that if the tolls strongly penalize ships large enough to cause delays due to destabilizing the wormhole longer than the normal transit interval between ships)

Bolding mine.

I don't think that transit intervals are a problem with civilian starships. Given how you can never be sure how good civilian pilots are (multiple star systems each with differing ideas of what "good piloting" is), the gap between transiting starships is probably two or three times the actual destabilization interval just to make sure that the idiot behind the helm has enough time to remember to hit the right button to go from Sails to Wedge before the next ship appears and runs into its stern.
Military transits are different because you can be pretty certain that the helms-people have a good clue as to what they are doing.

Brigade XO wrote:Tramps freighters were typicaly gypsy outfits that moved around a lot and might or might not have regular runs but were always looking for work and would take that smaller load &/or secondary (or lower) port destination run. to see the classic tramp of the 20th century in film, look at the original King Kong or (more recently made) Raiders of the Lost Ark. Tired and aging steamships taking charters or cargo loads.

Some odd island in the South Pacific for which the client has a map position....and payment ....sure. Rent the crew out as armed landing party, sure, we got modern rifles (what couple of thousand local storage islanders, a really big ape and dinosaurs?)

We don't actualy have a destination (or actual cargo/reason they are going there) for the ship Indy ends up on thought he help of his friend Sallah. What we do know (shown) is that they are about to leave a port in Egypt, the Captain at least is aquainted with Sallah (we have no idea of what the cost or terms of payment are) and they have at least one large empty cargo hold where they locked up the chest containing the ARK. That ship didn't look particularly loaded (lots of freeboard, sitting fairly high in the water) so it might or might not have been taking much in the way of cargo someplace just then but might have been heading to pick up a new load having just dropped one or more shipments in Egypt. The important part was it was going SOMEWHERE that night and there was space. The It's not very villian that can whistle up a military submarine and get himself (and henchmen) both to the sub and the sub to intercept a ship which may or may not have left an "accurate" next port of call with the local authorities who probably didn't really want to know what it was in the first place. Pay your port charges, your logistics bills and the standard "gratuity" to the local boss and you are good to go.

After WW II there were a bunch of small companies that set up operations in shipping stuff, dam near anything, in ex US Liberty ships and converted (or not) LSTs (Land Ship Tank). The ships were cheap, they were essentialy military surplus. There were a number of classes of lighter freighters and transports for smaller cargos and differnt routes. Post war lots of them were also sold off. The surplus warships (actual warships, not the armed freighters like the Liberties) either went to sale to other governments or scrap. Freighters and transports could continue to do the basic service they were designed for.
Of course, durring the war, just like durring WW I, a whole lot of merchant shipping got sunk and the surplus ships were often the only hulls available and many of them were of more modern design (propulsion, fuel - you really want to stick with oil, not keep shoveling coal- than the ships which were lost or were 30 years old when WW II broke out.

We don't see smaller interstellar freighter because they have not yet been important to the story lines.

Michael Everett wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The operational costs per ton of cargo should drop quickly in a larger design, so economics tend to push for the largest practical freighter. (Though routes using busy wormholes might push back against that if the tolls strongly penalize ships large enough to cause delays due to destabilizing the wormhole longer than the normal transit interval between ships)

Bolding mine.

I don't think that transit intervals are a problem with civilian starships. Given how you can never be sure how good civilian pilots are (multiple star systems each with differing ideas of what "good piloting" is), the gap between transiting starships is probably two or three times the actual destabilization interval just to make sure that the idiot behind the helm has enough time to remember to hit the right button to go from Sails to Wedge before the next ship appears and runs into its stern.
Military transits are different because you can be pretty certain that the helms-people have a good clue as to what they are doing.

Jonathan_S wrote:You're could be right. Minimum allowed by Manticoran Junction Traffic Control, IIRC, is 60 second intervals. And IIRC Junction Control doesn't normally need to go that tight; on what is probably the busiest wormhole in existence. (The DDs that collided were going through a minimum possible 10 second intervals; since they weren't big enough to destabilize it for longer than that).

OTOH we're told an old SD (say 8.5 mtons) will destabilize a wormhole for 113 seconds. If my math is crrect a 10 mton freighter would block it for 154 seconds (~2 1/2 minutes) and a theoretical 16 mton monster for 394 seconds (~6 1/2 minutes).

I could see some extra fees for a ship that blocks the wormhole for what's probably 3 times the normal 'safe' interval; or 6 times the minimum 'safe' interval. But maybe other economic factors keep ships from growing that large so the issue has never come up. <shrug>

darrell wrote:Where do you get a 10MT freighter at? The biggest freigher I have ever seen in the honorvers is 8.5M tons, the same size as the largest SD.

Same goes for a "theoretical 16 mton monster" which would be the same size as a junction fort.

The grayson compensators are more efficient, meaning that they allow a faster acceleration for the same ship size. They are not more powerful, meaning that the biggest ship size you can effectively use compensators on remains 8.5M tons.

darrell wrote:Where do you get a 10MT freighter at? The biggest freigher I have ever seen in the honorvers is 8.5M tons, the same size as the largest SD.

Same goes for a "theoretical 16 mton monster" which would be the same size as a junction fort.

The grayson compensators are more efficient, meaning that they allow a faster acceleration for the same ship size. They are not more powerful, meaning that the biggest ship size you can effectively use compensators on remains 8.5M tons.

Jonathan_S wrote:You're could be right. Minimum allowed by Manticoran Junction Traffic Control, IIRC, is 60 second intervals. And IIRC Junction Control doesn't normally need to go that tight; on what is probably the busiest wormhole in existence. (The DDs that collided were going through a minimum possible 10 second intervals; since they weren't big enough to destabilize it for longer than that).

OTOH we're told an old SD (say 8.5 mtons) will destabilize a wormhole for 113 seconds. If my math is crrect a 10 mton freighter would block it for 154 seconds (~2 1/2 minutes) and a theoretical 16 mton monster for 394 seconds (~6 1/2 minutes).

I could see some extra fees for a ship that blocks the wormhole for what's probably 3 times the normal 'safe' interval; or 6 times the minimum 'safe' interval. But maybe other economic factors keep ships from growing that large so the issue has never come up. <shrug>