Prediction: Spider Drive=Grav Lance

Brigade XO wrote:<snip>

As pointed out, the 12 members of the RF have a fair number of modern- by SL standards - ships and probably a good mix of things which are nominally SLN like Cataphracts which can be used without exposure as catspaws of the Alignment. The RF becomes the public face and force of the rebuilding of stability and "safety" as one of the sucessor states to the SL. It can't also become proof that the Alignment is actualy real be flaunting the open use of the mystery weapons and tactics reported by Manticore and believed in by Haven and the Aldermani and Beowulf.

My only concern is we still have not seen any capability of the MAN that couldn't be handled by a mil spec freighter, other than the inner system scouting. The launching of the OB munitions didn't need Sharks - they could have been launched by Mil spec freighters which entered the system further out (so they wouldn't have been seen entering the system or accelerating, then coasting to launch distance), or further in (adopt the profile of a freighter hypering in to use the wormhole, but emerging at a long, but suitable distance, and drop the stealth munitions on their trajectories while heading towards the junction). So why spend the money on 2 classes of large warships?

We know the Lenny Dets will always leave an emergence trace like the Sharks did, so it's not like they can operate everywhere with total impunity. Every raid will require some fancy footwork to cover their tracks - or there's got to be something more to the tactics - unless they are attacking tertiary systems without long range detection systems, which is something BCs can do now with ease. So there must be some other reason to still build a massive capital warship, we are not aware of.

Theemile wrote:We know the Lenny Dets will always leave an emergence trace like the Sharks did, so it's not like they can operate everywhere with total impunity. Every raid will require some fancy footwork to cover their tracks - or there's got to be something more to the tactics - unless they are attacking tertiary systems without long range detection systems, which is something BCs can do now with ease. So there must be some other reason to still build a massive capital warship, we are not aware of.

A squadron of dispatch boats would provide adequate cover. Try to figure out the forces needed to respond to 50 signatures at 2 light months inside 48 hours fast enough to have a chance of spotting something and in enough force to not get crushed like a bug if there IS something there.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:We know the Lenny Dets will always leave an emergence trace like the Sharks did, so it's not like they can operate everywhere with total impunity. Every raid will require some fancy footwork to cover their tracks - or there's got to be something more to the tactics - unless they are attacking tertiary systems without long range detection systems, which is something BCs can do now with ease. So there must be some other reason to still build a massive capital warship, we are not aware of.

A squadron of dispatch boats would provide adequate cover. Try to figure out the forces needed to respond to 50 signatures at 2 light months inside 48 hours fast enough to have a chance of spotting something and in enough force to not get crushed like a bug if there IS something there.

Once again, a BC can blow away a div of 4 DDs if it's caught, so a Fancy 12 Mton beast with Spider drive isn't needed to overwhelm defenders. It relies on stealth, which it cannot get completely due to it's emergence signature. And if you can throw 50 of them at a system - it doesn't matter if they are normal SDs or Lenny Dets - 99% of systems are screwed anyway and the games aren't needed.

Brigade XO wrote:Another sub variation that did work but not to the extent intended was building subs to carry one or two aircraft. Japan did the most work in that area and appears to have had the most success. This is putting scout or observation aircraft (foldable or dismantled) in watertight hangers and then flying and recovering them. Some of them were armed with bombs which were used. The actual damage caused by the bombings was minimal. The greatest effect was to stir up both the military and civilian populations with fear and divert a lot or resouces and personal to watching for and defend against one more component of the feared West Coast Invasion- which was not planned and did not happen. More successful were gunfire raids on coastal instaltions by subs. Not much damage, lots of response and defensive activity generated

Though I think the German variant of that was probably a better trade-off. Instead of big pressurized hangers and full up aircraft, they put a small collapsible autogyro (the Fa 330) aboard. It could be towed by a U-boat to greatly increase it's visual search range. (Could be quite useful if you don't have signal intelligence or radar to vector you onto targets)

Unfortunately, there were implementation issues (that design reportedly took 20 minutes on the surface to assemble), and by later in the war there was aircover from long range land planes or escort carriers over much of the North Atlantic convoys (plus the weather up there often wouldn't have been compatible with flight-ops).
But for Pacific Ocean use a better, quicker to set-up and break-down design might have been very useful; especially in the '30s before you were able to squeeze useful radar into subs.

Anyway, that's probably enough of that tangent.

Theemile wrote:Once again, a BC can blow away a div of 4 DDs if it's caught, so a Fancy 12 Mton beast with Spider drive isn't needed to overwhelm defenders. It relies on stealth, which it cannot get completely due to it's emergence signature. And if you can throw 50 of them at a system - it doesn't matter if they are normal SDs or Lenny Dets - 99% of systems are screwed anyway and the games aren't needed.

Keep in mind that only the most advanced systems mount sensor arrays capable of detecting low velocity hyper emergence more than a few light-days out.

There are probably plenty of places you can stealthily insert a spider ship to ambush naval units. (Even more so if you can slip the spiders in to somebody's lower-tech protectorate / allied system then use other visible forces to trigger a military response to there)


Just because a Spider ship can't reasonably expect to sneak into Manticore again doesn't automatically make them useless. There are still probably 90+% of human systems that are easy to sneak into and set up ambushes.

Theemile wrote:Once again, a BC can blow away a div of 4 DDs if it's caught, so a Fancy 12 Mton beast with Spider drive isn't needed to overwhelm defenders. It relies on stealth, which it cannot get completely due to it's emergence signature. And if you can throw 50 of them at a system - it doesn't matter if they are normal SDs or Lenny Dets - 99% of systems are screwed anyway and the games aren't needed.

Nope, I've got 8 of them and squadron of dispatch boats orating in pairs. DB jump in and out, then do it again after scurrying a distance away. Somewhere in this your actual attackers show up.

Oh, and every so often (like every few months) you just have the DB squadron show up, conduct ops and leave without having any LDs as part of the operation.

And sometimes you just jump in with a huge force and wait for the investigators to show up, then kill them all.

There are all sorts of horrible things you can do with these to keep the RMN busy, as they can either have their fleet protecting Manticore or carrying out offensive operations, but not both.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Once again, a BC can blow away a div of 4 DDs if it's caught, so a Fancy 12 Mton beast with Spider drive isn't needed to overwhelm defenders. It relies on stealth, which it cannot get completely due to it's emergence signature. And if you can throw 50 of them at a system - it doesn't matter if they are normal SDs or Lenny Dets - 99% of systems are screwed anyway and the games aren't needed.

Keep in mind that only the most advanced systems mount sensor arrays capable of detecting low velocity hyper emergence more than a few light-days out.

There are probably plenty of places you can stealthily insert a spider ship to ambush naval units. (Even more so if you can slip the spiders in to somebody's lower-tech protectorate / allied system then use other visible forces to trigger a military response to there)


Just because a Spider ship can't reasonably expect to sneak into Manticore again doesn't automatically make them useless. There are still probably 90+% of human systems that are easy to sneak into and set up ambushes.

I think you missed my point further up - you don't need a Lenny Det to smack a system too poor to afford a monitoring system - a handful of standard BCs are sufficient to pull that off. So the only realistic "primary" target is 1st tier and 2nd teir nations which have system sensor nets - which will detect anything entering the system - spider drive or no. So what's the point of building a 12 Mton monstrosity with Wunderweapons when those same Wunderweapons could be deployed from milspec freighters using a modified version of the same infiltration methods you used with your wunderships?

I don't think David or the Malign is dumb - there has to something more we don't know yet, and a raid like OB was just a small portion of the Lenny Det doctrine.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:Once again, a BC can blow away a div of 4 DDs if it's caught, so a Fancy 12 Mton beast with Spider drive isn't needed to overwhelm defenders. It relies on stealth, which it cannot get completely due to it's emergence signature. And if you can throw 50 of them at a system - it doesn't matter if they are normal SDs or Lenny Dets - 99% of systems are screwed anyway and the games aren't needed.

Nope, I've got 8 of them and squadron of dispatch boats orating in pairs. DB jump in and out, then do it again after scurrying a distance away. Somewhere in this your actual attackers show up.

Oh, and every so often (like every few months) you just have the DB squadron show up, conduct ops and leave without having any LDs as part of the operation.

And sometimes you just jump in with a huge force and wait for the investigators to show up, then kill them all.

There are all sorts of horrible things you can do with these to keep the RMN busy, as they can either have their fleet protecting Manticore or carrying out offensive operations, but not both.

I agree you're going to wear out the RMN - but they know something is up and will be paranoid. Defensive system will be online all the time - Warships will be in orbit with hot nodes. The orbital Wedge Bouys will be on, or will come up at random times, as will the station bubble walls.

I know you can't be 100% alert all the time, but depending on opponent weariness and sloppiness is not a way to raid a 1st tier system, it's just a tactic to divert his fleet (Which depending on your goals, may be a worthwhile tactic.)

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
Keep in mind that only the most advanced systems mount sensor arrays capable of detecting low velocity hyper emergence more than a few light-days out.

There are probably plenty of places you can stealthily insert a spider ship to ambush naval units. (Even more so if you can slip the spiders in to somebody's lower-tech protectorate / allied system then use other visible forces to trigger a military response to there)


Just because a Spider ship can't reasonably expect to sneak into Manticore again doesn't automatically make them useless. There are still probably 90+% of human systems that are easy to sneak into and set up ambushes.

I think you missed my point further up - you don't need a Lenny Det to smack a system too poor to afford a monitoring system - a handful of standard BCs are sufficient to pull that off. So the only realistic "primary" target is 1st tier and 2nd teir nations which have system sensor nets - which will detect anything entering the system - spider drive or no. So what's the point of building a 12 Mton monstrosity with Wunderweapons when those same Wunderweapons could be deployed from milspec freighters using a modified version of the same infiltration methods you used with your wunderships?

I don't think David or the Malign is dumb - there has to something more we don't know yet, and a raid like OB was just a small portion of the Lenny Det doctrine.

I wasn't suggesting that you needed the Dets for that; just that such a system could be a nice place to lure a fleet from a system like Manticore.

Plus you could use the in the defense (or couterattack) of systems seized by your opponent; because installing the kind of sensor and response assets necessary to archive some security against stealthy insertions can't be done overnight.

And even moving against a system with excellent hyper sensors you can use them to your advantage if you've got conventional units you're willing to show working in cooperation with the Spiders. Jump in your spiders in with your conventional fleet, or earlier with scout DDs. Then manouver in such a way to give time for the Spiders to get out and set an ambush for the responding forces. (Or heck, lure the mobile defenders out towards you while the Spider's sneak past them and attempt to gut the orbital infrastructure)


Even if the Lenny Dets can't go head to head with GA SD(P)s (and I suspect they can't) there are still ways to use them until someone comes up with a better way to beat their stealth.

Theemile wrote:I know you can't be 100% alert all the time, but depending on opponent weariness and sloppiness is not a way to raid a 1st tier system, it's just a tactic to divert his fleet (Which depending on your goals, may be a worthwhile tactic.)

I've got two DB squadrons and two BatRons (need two as they need time off between raids) shutting down the >500 ships of the entire RMN, so it's a pretty effective economy of force operation.

Or the RMN can instead go do cool and exciting things and I'll blow their space based industry to hell again. And Beowulf is not exempt.

kzt wrote:

Theemile wrote:I know you can't be 100% alert all the time, but depending on opponent weariness and sloppiness is not a way to raid a 1st tier system, it's just a tactic to divert his fleet (Which depending on your goals, may be a worthwhile tactic.)

I've got two DB squadrons and two BatRons (need two as they need time off between raids) shutting down the >500 ships of the entire RMN, so it's a pretty effective economy of force operation.

Or the RMN can instead go do cool and exciting things and I'll blow their space based industry to hell again. And Beowulf is not exempt.

I think we are talking 2 sides of the same story. You are showing that you don't need Lenny Det's to do that. And that was my point.