Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

I wonder if an Arcanan Trap-spell can be detected by a
Sharonan Talent, or by any talented Sharonan.

Remember, in Book 1, the Whiffer and the Plotter both felt
that there was something "wrong" with a sarkolis christal
that they touched. Then several such christals were bagged
and sent back. Nothing further has been heard about them.

We lack reports of Talented Sharonan scientists
investigating Arcanan magic.

HTM

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I wonder if an Arcanan Trap-spell can be detected by a
Sharonan Talent, or by any talented Sharonan.

Remember, in Book 1, the Whiffer and the Plotter both felt
that there was something "wrong" with a sarkolis christal
that they touched. Then several such christals were bagged
and sent back. Nothing further has been heard about them.

We lack reports of Talented Sharonan scientists
investigating Arcanan magic.

HTM

I've wondered the same issues, although not in those exact terms. If Peter's speculation of both gifts and talents tapping into the aethor is true --and I think that it does make sense--then it could be just a matter of those with talents knowing what to look for in detecting gifts and vice-versa.

Don

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Oops. Apologies to Howard T et al I meant to write Arcanans not Sharonians, of course because that's who Louis R was writing about at that point. He is arguing that the existence of trap spells implies something like a contact or proximity fuse which should make artillery warheads simple. I was trying to ask why no Arcanan had ever done it if it was so easy and seeking to suggest there must be some problem Louis wasn't taking into account, but got myself thoroughly muddled.

Randomiser wrote:

Louis R wrote:
<snip>

so, again, there really shouldn't be any challenge in creating artillery warheads.

<snip>

Except if that is so, how come no Sharonian has ever done so? The fact that they have doctrine for defending a portal suggests they have thought about the possibility of someone attacking through one (though I'm not sure they have ever had to use their doctrine before). After all, conceptually speaking, a contact-fused shell is just a land mine you have thrown at someone. If they have land mines (I can't remember myself) it's not such a big mental leap.

Which takes us back to Gadriel's insight on belief. Talent and Gift are the apreciably expressed resonance (?) of a mind to aether. Some minds resonate with aether to manifest inside the physical world. Others resonate in other dimensions and manifest effects between minds or like flickers involve transport between dimension. My rereads have twigged onto some exceptions. I recall mention of Talents being able to levitate large amounts of mass. This argues for more cross over between Gifts and Talents.

Bottom line is does the belief of ANY mind influence aether or only only those minds attuned to aether can influence it? Gadriel's insight suggest unattuned minds offer some influence. How is a question for future books.

n7axw wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:I wonder if an Arcanan Trap-spell can be detected by a
Sharonan Talent, or by any talented Sharonan.

Remember, in Book 1, the Whiffer and the Plotter both felt
that there was something "wrong" with a sarkolis christal
that they touched. Then several such christals were bagged
and sent back. Nothing further has been heard about them.

We lack reports of Talented Sharonan scientists
investigating Arcanan magic.

HTM

I've wondered the same issues, although not in those exact terms. If Peter's speculation of both gifts and talents tapping into the aethor is true --and I think that it does make sense--then it could be just a matter of those with talents knowing what to look for in detecting gifts and vice-versa.

Don

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Randomiser wrote::oops: Oops. Apologies to Howard T et al I meant to write Arcanans not Sharonians, of course because that's who Louis R was writing about at that point. He is arguing that the existence of trap spells implies something like a contact or proximity fuse which should make artillery warheads simple. I was trying to ask why no Arcanan had ever done it if it was so easy and seeking to suggest there must be some problem Louis wasn't taking into account, but got myself thoroughly muddled.

I'd point out that neither side had been involved in a trans-universe war before. The most either has done is basically action against violent criminals.

So Ancara never had to forces a portal against any military force; and even if they'd run war games for it they'd have almost certainly assumed similar weapons. So it was likely an unexamined assumption that nothing more powerful than an inert ballistic projectile could work through a portal. And without the pressure of actual combat to spur innovation I don't find it too surprising that even fairly simple innovations might get missed.

Of course the other possibility is that we're wrong and it much harder to turn a crystal into a fused projectile able to activate its stored spell after getting thrown through a portal...

Jonathan_S wrote:
Of course the other possibility is that we're wrong and it much harder to turn a crystal into a fused projectile able to activate its stored spell after getting thrown through a portal...

I would like to point out here that they have had transport dragons practically forever and having the pilot of the dragon drop a crystal on the enemies heads seems so obvious that I can't imagine they didn't think of it when they were fighting each other. We started doing that with hand grenades (which we know they have) practically as soon as we had airplanes. So something must make it much harder (even without the portal interfering) then people are thinking.

Nicholas

brnicholas wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
Of course the other possibility is that we're wrong and it much harder to turn a crystal into a fused projectile able to activate its stored spell after getting thrown through a portal...

I would like to point out here that they have had transport dragons practically forever and having the pilot of the dragon drop a crystal on the enemies heads seems so obvious that I can't imagine they didn't think of it when they were fighting each other. We started doing that with hand grenades (which we know they have) practically as soon as we had airplanes. So something must make it much harder (even without the portal interfering) then people are thinking.

Nicholas

Yep. It mmight well be difficult getting the dragon overhead against an enemy defending a portal in strength with artillery. But an army caught out in the open with dragons overhead above artillery range would be vulnerable to this tactic.

Don

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brnicholas wrote:I would like to point out here that they have had transport dragons practically forever and having the pilot of the dragon drop a crystal on the enemies heads seems so obvious that I can't imagine they didn't think of it when they were fighting each other. We started doing that with hand grenades (which we know they have) practically as soon as we had airplanes. So something must make it much harder (even without the portal interfering) then people are thinking.

It is such an obvious tactic that there must be some reason they don't use it. Problems with activating the spell properly (outside of a gifted person's control) may be one reason. Their crystal (sarkolis?) may be to expensive to throw away as artillery and bombs for this use could also prevent it. Although they have shown so much of it (albeit only for reusable purposes) that I am not sure it could be prohibitively expensive.

Astelon wrote:

brnicholas wrote:I would like to point out here that they have had transport dragons practically forever and having the pilot of the dragon drop a crystal on the enemies heads seems so obvious that I can't imagine they didn't think of it when they were fighting each other. We started doing that with hand grenades (which we know they have) practically as soon as we had airplanes. So something must make it much harder (even without the portal interfering) then people are thinking.

It is such an obvious tactic that there must be some reason they don't use it. Problems with activating the spell properly (outside of a gifted person's control) may be one reason. Their crystal (sarkolis?) may be to expensive to throw away as artillery and bombs for this use could also prevent it. Although they have shown so much of it (albeit only for reusable purposes) that I am not sure it could be prohibitively expensive.

As I understand it, while all magic requires someone gifted to set up the spells, it can be set for useage by the non-gifted. In that event, it is hard to see why crystals set up as bombs couldn't be set up with non-magical trigguring mechanisms.

As for how expensive it might be, cost is set up by supply and demand. It us possible that the availability of magisters to set up the spells could drive up the cost of the crystals, especially if they were needed in large numbers.

Don

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n7axw wrote:
As I understand it, while all magic requires someone gifted to set up the spells, it can be set for useage by the non-gifted. In that event, it is hard to see why crystals set up as bombs couldn't be set up with non-magical trigguring mechanisms.

As for how expensive it might be, cost is set up by supply and demand. It us possible that the availability of magisters to set up the spells could drive up the cost of the crystals, especially if they were needed in large numbers.

Don

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Not quite. Both Dagger Stones and the demolition charge spells required Gifted users to utilize. That implies that some limits of either complexity of the spell or power captured by a spell requires the Gift. Would arming a powerful bomb require a greater level of Gift than dragon riders usually possess? Perhaps.

Firing artillery would have the same limitations and we would add aiming the field piece to arming the shell/crystal. Not to mention actually propelling the shell/crystal a suitable distance. Consider the reaction to Jathmar's description of the pressures his small rifle cartridge generated at the firing range. That sort of pressure or motive force was unheard of. Heck, Arcanans use spell aided crossbows to launch small arms missiles. What would they do for large missiles?

I suspect that capturing the forces Gadriel described just before she shot the rifle is no mean feat for magisters. Likely a feat that would require a seriously gifted magister to create and some high level of Gift to event fire properly.