Merlin's Upcoming Conversation with Thirsk

Hi Don,

Bravo!

Kudos.

Exactly.

We should have a new thread on who asks Zhaspahr if he's ever realized how all his jihad decisions have been wrong from the get-go, beginning 6 years ago?

Trusting God to make his stupid decisions work has failed for long enough that Dialydd Mab might make it an open challenge via the broadsheets, whisper campaigns etc, as the FoG and alliance make it plain they're fighting Clyntahn and the Go4 far more than mother church, which more an more TL's can understand and identify with.

Might Rhobair do it after he launches his coup?

If the broadsheets and thousands of smaller printed paper copies locally spread by the wind anonymously [tens of millions or billions across Haven, which might be one way of finding local inquisitors, agents or informers] listed all the bad decisions that destroyed the AoG, the Army of Shiloh etc that the inner circle is confident was Clyntahn's interfering, how many families who lost someone would be more susceptible to supporting the Fist of God against CoGA corruption?

L

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
I am not sure I agree with your conclusion. Sure, Clyntahn will gravitate towards more direct control when presented with novel or unexpected situations. Not because his will is being thwarted, but because he is being confronted with situations that are ever more beyond his experience to deal with.

He knows squat about finances and military deployments and logistics. That ignorance will either force him to rely on others or force him to use the knowledge he does have to make decisions and rely on God to make the decision successful. Either option will tend to thwart his over arching goal and force him to make more decisions based on his own imperfect knowledge and rely even more on God. If he relies on others and they fail to offset Charis' massive industrial advantage, he will move towards relying on God. If he relies on his own ignorance and God and still fails, obviously that just means God is testing him but will eventually deliver victory to His stewards.

I think that things are simpler than this. Clyntahn is relying not on rationality but his gut which he seems to have confused with the will of God. The way he handled the situation with the Army of the Sylmahn for example, made no sense. How was Wyrshym supposed to protect the camps by squating in place with supply line cut off and starving to death? This is only one example. One could write an entire thesis on how convoluted Clyntahn's decision process has been. He has been Charis' best ally in the war simply due to his capacity for screwing up. All "relying on God" really is relative to Clyntahn is relying on his gut whether it makes any sense or not.

Don

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

Thank you, I've missed reading your posts as well.

I didn't mean to imply that Merlin would leave a com with Thirsk, as at least the same objections apply to any letter or memento left that the valet might see etc, rather that he would share one when he visited, which I think will be frequently over the next few month's.

You have a point dealing with the inquisition, but OWL ought to have identified many of the critical ones and once the FoG goes after them and their TL allies like Thorast, things could be a whole lot easier for the Dohlaran patriots, who being very secretive and mysterious, would be far better effective than foreign troops.

The reason I specified bolt cutters for the wyvern cages is precisely to save fingers and hands.

L

The same arguments against leaving a com behind apply to showing him one for the most part.

At this point, although he is not happy about the situation, his commitments are still to the EOCs enemies. No arcane knowledge for Thirsk until that changes. The COGA has already labeled Merlin Cayleb's demon familiar. No point in proving that for Thirsk.

Right now Thirsk is very conflicted and unstable over both what has happened to his family and his own increasing awareness that he is serving on the wrong side. Merlin can provide immediate relief about his family. But Thirsk has to work through the other issue himself.

As for the idea of a letter from his daughters, I still think that is the best bet at this point in time. A letter with familiar handwriting, phraseology and terms of endearment should turn the trick nicely. If there is concern over security, Merlin can show him the letters and then keep them in his possession with an agreement to turn the letters over once security is no longer a concern. A paragraph could be put in one of the letters explaining why this is being done and that the letters will be put back in possession of the children.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:Clyntahn wasn't looking to effectively lead the CoGA to victory. He relies on God to secure that ultimate outcome. Clyntahn was trying to comport the human effort to be consistent with what he believes God demands from humanity. So, it is better to try properly and lose than to find a more effective but unacceptable strategy/tactic and win.

That is his view on orthodoxy.

Mr. Weber has Clyntahn relying on divine intervention to render the AofG victorious. Continued proof that this isn't working is the apparent present course of the series. It is possible Mr. Weber may change this by an effect from the computer under the Temple. Earlier, it was said that a manifestation from the temple computer was expected in a few years. At present, the progress of the war indicates its conclusion before that time. Use of the Wylsynn artifact before then would mean that Charis has conquered the Temple, or that access had been achieved.
A new element may be introduced into the story that will either encourage Clyntahn, or cause his death by apoplexy (or heart), in which case the control of the Inquisition will fall to Rayno.

SciFi90 wrote:

n7axw wrote:What is interesting to me about this is that the longer the war has gone on, the more Clyntahn and the inquisition have assumed control and the more dependent the COGA is on the inquisition to carry out basic functions. In HFQ we've seen the inquisition start to crack. I find myself thinking that could end up impacting the COGA's ability to continue the Jihad.

Don

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Mr. Weber may be setting the stage for Clyntahn to take over control of Army of God operations, and his fanaticism; ("God will not permit the Church forces to lose!") to cause issuance of orders that are either impossible to carry out, or disastrous to the various "armies" so ordered.

It is obvious that the Armies of the Church will continue to suffer defeat. Mr. Weber may write that continuing defeat in the face of Clyntahn's fanaticism may have a physical or metal effect on him, such a heart attack or insanity.In either case, his incapacity to control would leave Rayno, (or the other 3) in charge. Paths from that point would be infinite in their possible directions. The one selected by Mr. Weber will be most interesting, but obviously leading to the ascendancy of the Church of Charis and restoration of scientific study and eventual achievement of space flight. That is an ultimate goal; the road traveled will be very interesting.

Geee....

6 years ago, huh? Seems almost like the 7 years in the real world that we have suffered....

Just saying, a lot of similarity.....

Dan Jones

n7axw wrote:
The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don

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Clyntahn is getting at the least IRRATIONAL. He is insane and governed by his hate. Destruction of what is opposing his will is a primary driver in his actions. Rayno can slow his absurd decrees (at risk) but will not stand in his way. He remains cunning and intelligent but a flash of temper away from atrocity.

My comments about 'The Allies' might end up defending Dohlar is in part an assumption that once 300,000 plus soldiers are sent to the border of Dohlar to fight Hanth there will be little supply train to support them. the entire area has been stripped by all soldiers passing back and forth. The only Means of survival for the Harchogese could be to invade Dohlar.

Otherwise Clyntahn could be mad at Dohlar and encourage 'his troop' to invade and punish as per my earlier post.

dwileye13 wrote:

n7axw wrote:
The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don

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Clyntahn is getting at the least IRRATIONAL. He is insane and governed by his hate. Destruction of what is opposing his will is a primary driver in his actions. Rayno can slow his absurd decrees (at risk) but will not stand in his way. He remains cunning and intelligent but a flash of temper away from atrocity.

My comments about 'The Allies' might end up defending Dohlar is in part an assumption that once 300,000 plus soldiers are sent to the border of Dohlar to fight Hanth there will be little supply train to support them. the entire area has been stripped by all soldiers passing back and forth. The only Means of survival for the Harchogese could be to invade Dohlar.

Otherwise Clyntahn could be mad at Dohlar and encourage 'his troop' to invade and punish as per my earlier post.

It's been a while sinse my last post in this discussion and I'm a bit foggy on my point here. So I'll just respond fresh.

I agree with you about Clynthn except to observe that Clyntahn no longer requires an outburst of temper to commit atrocities. Atrocities have become a routine tool for implementing policy,

As for the Harchobgians marching on Hanth and Dohlar, your scenario is plausible. I would note that Hanth is probably due to be heavily reinforced. Then too, I doubt that Eastshare is not going to be sitting on his hands watching all this happen. In fact preoccupation with Eastshare could well deflect the Temple's attention from Dohlar.

Wouldn't is be delicious if Rychtyr received orders from Gorath to link up with Hanth so they could combine against the Harchongians?

Don

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Merlin clears his throat and speaks with a deep austrian accent,
"Mai mission is to protech't yuu, cohm wit me if yuu wan'to live."
bewildered, thirsk take his hand when Merlin looks up,
"Get dow'un!"
AOG guards start shooting,
"Get'to the choppa!"

ROFL!

Hi Don,

Before Dohlar can switch sides, there must be a break between the Go4 and Dohlar, which could happen soon but not immediately.

The purpose of Merlin's visit is restore Thirsk's reason for living, so he can help save Dohlar.

Seeing his daughters and grandchildren is critical to that, which given how magical Merlin now seems to Thirsk [evidently walking around Gorath City in his mailed Charisian uniform will do that] will probably only confirm to Thirsk that he is a seijin, and be more inclined to consider his suggestions.

Prime among them is not making any suicidal statements or actions, that the reason for his more cheerful mood is because he knows his family is in a much better place, ie with god and the archangels etc.

Losing his tentative hold on Thirsk may provoke Clyntahn to have the inquisition crack down even harder on Dohlar, thus providing Thirsk with increasingly more allies.

Between Nynian and Nahrmahn, eliminating Clyntahn's best agents in Dohlar via OWL's remotes etc might be a fun winter diversion for the whole inner circle besides previous suggested scenes, so that by spring Dohlar could be a very willing addition to the Charis-Siddarmark alliance.

L

n7axw wrote:

dwileye13 wrote:*quote="n7axw"*

The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don

-*quote*
Clyntahn is getting at the least IRRATIONAL. He is insane and governed by his hate. Destruction of what is opposing his will is a primary driver in his actions. Rayno can slow his absurd decrees (at risk) but will not stand in his way. He remains cunning and intelligent but a flash of temper away from atrocity.

My comments about 'The Allies' might end up defending Dohlar is in part an assumption that once 300,000 plus soldiers are sent to the border of Dohlar to fight Hanth there will be little supply train to support them. the entire area has been stripped by all soldiers passing back and forth. The only Means of survival for the Harchogese could be to invade Dohlar.

Otherwise Clyntahn could be mad at Dohlar and encourage 'his troop' to invade and punish as per my earlier post.

It's been a while sinse my last post in this discussion and I'm a bit foggy on my point here. So I'll just respond fresh.

I agree with you about Clynthn except to observe that Clyntahn no longer requires an outburst of temper to commit atrocities. Atrocities have become a routine tool for implementing policy,

As for the Harchobgians marching on Hanth and Dohlar, your scenario is plausible. I would note that Hanth is probably due to be heavily reinforced. Then too, I doubt that Eastshare is not going to be sitting on his hands watching all this happen. In fact preoccupation with Eastshare could well deflect the Temple's attention from Dohlar.

Wouldn't is be delicious if Rychtyr received orders from Gorath to link up with Hanth so they could combine against the Harchongians?

Don

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dwileye13 wrote:

n7axw wrote:
The trouble with this is that Clyntahn is already making decisions that are less than rational and well thought through. Having the Harchongians deal with Hanth and Dohlar is something that could appeal to him on reflex if his will is thwarted.

Don



It's been a while sinse my last post in this discussion and I'm a bit foggy on my point here. So I'll just respond fresh.

I agree with you about Clynthn except to observe that Clyntahn no longer requires an outburst of temper to commit atrocities. Atrocities have become a routine tool for implementing policy,

As for the Harchobgians marching on Hanth and Dohlar, your scenario is plausible. I would note that Hanth is probably due to be heavily reinforced. Then too, I doubt that Eastshare is not going to be sitting on his hands watching all this happen. In fact preoccupation with Eastshare could well deflect the Temple's attention from Dohlar.

Wouldn't is be delicious if Rychtyr received orders from Gorath to link up with Hanth so they could combine against the Harchongians?

Don

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Downright Savory,
The 300K are just around the Bay of Bess and will follow the Coast toward Dairnyth, Hanth will be reinforced and Eastshare could Come in behind to cut them off from their supply chain. At the same time, the King Haaralds will be making a showing - Dohlar may have pony up a few BIG 'sorries and realign their politics.

RFC will come up with a good story line but that one would be cool