Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

That happened *after* Janaki had died,
and the battle was over.
It was an emotional response to the events.
It did not necessarily bind Markan to Janaki's suzerain, Zindel,
and even less necessarily to Janaki's heir.
(Lawyers might argue over that, if they want to.)

It was also an action on the Far Frontier,
forty thousand miles from home,
and in the face of the enemy.
How could it bind Markan's colleagues on Sharona itself?
How does this impulsive act by Markan, a mere statement,
not made until after Janaki was dead,
and the battle was fought and won,
provide evidence of the duties and loyalties of those
Uromathans who are still on Sharona?

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Then was Markan mistaken when he accepted Janaki as his
Imperial Prince too? If he was not mistaken and Zindel's oath
is accuate, then there is fealty to the Sharonan Crown by
the Empire's citzens. Betraying that fealty is treason.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Treason?
I daresay that the oaths of all Uromathan officers are to Chava.
Their duty to all Sharona goes through Chava.
I also dare to say that Chava believes, really and truly,
that Sharona's only competent leader is himself.

Even so, Chava would be wise to not involve Sunlord Markan
in his homeworld plots. Better let Markan add to the good
reputation he has earned at Salby. Then Chava can display
his own competence by appointing Markan his Outworlds Viceroy!

HTM

That depends on whether Markan's statement described a change in his personal allegiance or a reflection of what the treaty creating the Empire stipulates.

I suspect Markan simply voiced what the treaty codified.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:That happened *after* Janaki had died,
and the battle was over.
It was an emotional response to the events.
It did not necessarily bind Markan to Janaki's suzerain, Zindel,
and even less necessarily to Janaki's heir.
(Lawyers might argue over that, if they want to.)

It was also an action on the Far Frontier,
forty thousand miles from home,
and in the face of the enemy.
How could it bind Markan's colleagues on Sharona itself?
How does this impulsive act by Markan, a mere statement,
not made until after Janaki was dead,
and the battle was fought and won,
provide evidence of the duties and loyalties of those
Uromathans who are still on Sharona?

HTM

I believe it was ascribed to Patton dressing down a commander who proudly announced that he had reached his objective which was a river. The dressing down came when the commander admitted that he had not established a lodgment on the other side of the river.

If the Sharona commander does not establish a large enough lodgment in the Mahritha universe to affectively resume the offensive he should be relieved of command.

How large should the Mathritha bridgehead be? I would suggest approximately a five mile radius perimeter of interlocking strong points protecting the rail yard, warehouses and wharfs on the canals.

What canals? Here is where most of the posters I have read are seeing the swamp as being an impediment. The Sharona tech base has large steam shovels and dredges. The swamp is a road simply waiting for the signposts to be erected and some mud to be flung.

Of course the full development of the Mahritha lodgment will not proceed until the rail lines reach the portal.

Tim wrote:I believe it was ascribed to Patton dressing down a commander who proudly announced that he had reached his objective which was a river. The dressing down came when the commander admitted that he had not established a lodgment on the other side of the river.

If the Sharona commander does not establish a large enough lodgment in the Mahritha universe to affectively resume the offensive he should be relieved of command.

How large should the Mathritha bridgehead be? I would suggest approximately a five mile radius perimeter of interlocking strong points protecting the rail yard, warehouses and wharfs on the canals.

What canals? Here is where most of the posters I have read are seeing the swamp as being an impediment. The Sharona tech base has large steam shovels and dredges. The swamp is a road simply waiting for the signposts to be erected and some mud to be flung.

Of course the full development of the Mahritha lodgment will not proceed until the rail lines reach the portal.

If the goal is to resume the offensive, you are right. However, matters will become more difficult for Sharona should resume the offensive. First there is the matter of lengthening supply lines in increasingly hostile territory. Then there is the risk of flanking attacks as Arcana is able to increasingly bring it's mobility into play and bring more battle dragons forward. Sharona's military situation would soon mirror Harshu's, only on a bigger scale. After that we have to consider Arcana's magic which will become increasingly effective the closer to Arcana the Sharonians get to the point of magic spells that can wipe whole armies.

Finally there is the question of an attainable objective. Patton never campaigned in any situation where his ultimate objective lay more than a few hundred miles away so insisting on the far side of the river made sense. But it's 85,000 miles between Hell's gate and Portalis...all of it hostile country. It brings to mind Napoleon's invasion of Russia...or perhaps Hitler's and Hitler had better tech than Sharona. We know how that turned out.

To conclude, given the tech level available to Sharona and the potentially disastrous state over-extension of its logistics would create, Sharona will have to fort up and play defense somewhere. It seens to me that the swamp portal is probably about the best place to do it.

Don

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n7axw wrote:If the goal is to resume the offensive, you are right. However, matters will become more difficult for Sharona should resume the offensive.

Of course Sharona is thinking in terms of resuming the offensive. What they have seen of Arcana is a horde of murdering savages who have decided the multiverse isn't big enough for them and someone else. They are wrong but it will take them time to learn (and more importantly trust) differently.

n7axw wrote:First there is the matter of lengthening supply lines in increasingly hostile territory. Then there is the risk of flanking attacks as Arcana is able to increasingly bring it's mobility into play and bring more battle dragons forward. Sharona's military situation would soon mirror Harshu's, only on a bigger scale.

The problems going forward, are going to become very difficult for Sharona, but they have several universes before the logistics problem will become enough of an issue to stop the advance. They can take Mahritha, and probably the next universe after a breif pause to catch their breath and rearm. Counter attacks will be part of the equation, at least until some kind of ceasefire is agreed to, and we know how the last one worked out for Sharona (trust issue again).

n7axw wrote:Finally there is the question of an attainable objective. Patton never campaigned in any situation where his ultimate objective lay more than a few hundred miles away so insisting on the far side of the river made sense. But it's 85,000 miles between Hell's gate and Portalis...all of it hostile country. It brings to mind Napoleon's invasion of Russia...or perhaps Hitler's and Hitler had better tech than Sharona. We know how that turned out.

Sharona doesn't yet know how far it is to Arcana, nor the industrial capacity or population limits of their enemy. They don't know how difficult that makes the objective, or how much it might cost to reach. Even if they did know the difficulty and cost, Sharona currently sees no alternative; the price must be paid, or they must accept defeat. Again time and further information will prove otherwise, but current plans will stand until Sharona accepts the proof.

Sharona also has ten billion people and access to multiple worlds of resources. They are much better positioned to pay the cost than earth was in 1890ish. Simply building manufacturing and farming capabilities within the Hell's Gate portal cluster (along with access to resources through the portals) will allow them to move much of their logistics requirements closer to the front.

n7axw wrote:After that we have to consider Arcana's magic which will become increasingly effective the closer to Arcana the Sharonians get to the point of magic spells that can wipe whole armies.

I think you are overestimating the limitations that each side will face. When deep into the others' territory they will face issues of failing spells, technology, and talent. Sharona will face severe logistics problems, long before Arcana gains an advantage their. Unless Arcana can tip the balance on purpose, then they won't even need mass destruction spells. The failures of rifles, artillery, and talent will doom Sharona's attempts to advance.

n7axw wrote:

Tim wrote:I believe it was ascribed to Patton dressing down a commander who proudly announced that he had reached his objective which was a river. The dressing down came when the commander admitted that he had not established a lodgment on the other side of the river.

If the Sharona commander does not establish a large enough lodgment in the Mahritha universe to affectively resume the offensive he should be relieved of command.

How large should the Mathritha bridgehead be? I would suggest approximately a five mile radius perimeter of interlocking strong points protecting the rail yard, warehouses and wharfs on the canals.

What canals? Here is where most of the posters I have read are seeing the swamp as being an impediment. The Sharona tech base has large steam shovels and dredges. The swamp is a road simply waiting for the signposts to be erected and some mud to be flung.

Of course the full development of the Mahritha lodgment will not proceed until the rail lines reach the portal.

If the goal is to resume the offensive, you are right. However, matters will become more difficult for Sharona should resume the offensive. First there is the matter of lengthening supply lines in increasingly hostile territory. Then there is the risk of flanking attacks as Arcana is able to increasingly bring it's mobility into play and bring more battle dragons forward. Sharona's military situation would soon mirror Harshu's, only on a bigger scale. After that we have to consider Arcana's magic which will become increasingly effective the closer to Arcana the Sharonians get to the point of magic spells that can wipe whole armies.

Finally there is the question of an attainable objective. Patton never campaigned in any situation where his ultimate objective lay more than a few hundred miles away so insisting on the far side of the river made sense. But it's 85,000 miles between Hell's gate and Portalis...all of it hostile country. It brings to mind Napoleon's invasion of Russia...or perhaps Hitler's and Hitler had better tech than Sharona. We know how that turned out.

To conclude, given the tech level available to Sharona and the potentially disastrous state over-extension of its logistics would create, Sharona will have to fort up and play defense somewhere. It seens to me that the swamp portal is probably about the best place to do it.

Don

-

Sharona HAS to resume the offensive after establishing a reliable transportation system to the swamp portal and securing a large enough bridgehead.

There are to many questions that need answering and enemy capabilities to be ferreted out. Those answers can only be found by going forward. I'm not proposing the Sharonians be stupid about it. Sharon can counter or negate most of the Arcana capabilities they have encountered. It would be criminal of the Sharon commander not to advance.

The fear of the battle dragons breath weapons and mobility is irrational. Troops under cover, be it a bunker or an armored vehicle, are practically immune to the magical effects. All of the known Arcana weapons require, in Sharona terms, closing to very close distances. Which means the Arcana are getting the snot shoot out of them before the weapons can be used.

Arcana mobility and capabilities will make it difficult to advance and secure Sharon logistic lines. But Sharon has the weapons and leadership to devise tactics to secure their lines.

A final point. If a static defense were to be implemented the defeat of Sharona would be assured. Any new Arcana weapon systems could be deployed and used under optimal conditions.

Tim wrote:
Sharona HAS to resume the offensive after establishing a reliable transportation system to the swamp portal and securing a large enough bridgehead.

There are to many questions that need answering and enemy capabilities to be ferreted out. Those answers can only be found by going forward. I'm not proposing the Sharonians be stupid about it. Sharon can counter or negate most of the Arcana capabilities they have encountered. It would be criminal of the Sharon commander not to advance.

The fear of the battle dragons breath weapons and mobility is irrational. Troops under cover, be it a bunker or an armored vehicle, are practically immune to the magical effects. All of the known Arcana weapons require, in Sharona terms, closing to very close distances. Which means the Arcana are getting the snot shoot out of them before the weapons can be used.

Arcana mobility and capabilities will make it difficult to advance and secure Sharon logistic lines. But Sharon has the weapons and leadership to devise tactics to secure their lines.

A final point. If a static defense were to be implemented the defeat of Sharona would be assured. Any new Arcana weapon systems could be deployed and used under optimal conditions.

You seem to be assuming that most of us are arguing that Sharona should just fort up at the swamp portal. I believe that most of the arguments are about how long they must pause their heavy forces in the area of that portal while they do a combination of rear area consolidation and infrastructure installation.

Canals to the nearest river would be one practical way to move the needed supplies. Historically this has often taken years (although in time of war much of the planning and permitting delays of modern projects would go away). It will take a couple of months min. to get the railroad to the portal, then you need to get the equipment to build the infrastructure into location.

I believe that Sharona will build a large fortified port around the swamp portal. I just think that Arcana will be able to make at least one major counter attack before it is completed.

I can understand the logic of the offensive. It is just that it doesn't seem to me to apply very well in this context. As for a defensive posture guaranteeing defeat, no. A solid defense in depth can make it too expensive for the other side to proceed. And an offensive carries with it its own set of risks as I pointed out in a previous post.

Imagine, for example, dragons soaring high enough above an advancing Sharonian army to be out of range of its artillery and drop crystals with explosive spells powerful enough to level a city. Heck, they wouldn't have to use battle dragons for that. Transports would do just fine. Or, imagine a team of Arcanan scouts slipping behind a Sharonian army and planting those explosive crystals under the track to blow up the next supply train.

What it finally comes down to is this. The war is going to be fought in the pristine universes sinse neither side's weapons will function in its opponents settled universes. Arcana, at least, is on its way to figuring that out. We don't know that about Sharona, but they have taken prisoners and it is not too bad of a stretch to think that they have gained intel on the nature of Arcana's gifts and had a prisoner make the discovery that his "gift" is not working too well on Sharona. In fact the best defense anyone could arrange for any universe would be to fill it up with its own people to negate the usefulness of the other side's weapons. The bottom line ends up being a stand off.

So could Sharona take Mahritha at this point? Probably. But could they keep it? Maybe yes, maybe no. Perhaps there would be a point to it in terms of a trip wire to provide warning of an attack on Hell's Gate. What I'm really opposing here is an offensive with no achievable goals that over extends Sharona's supply lines and exposes her army to the danger of being flanked or cut off. Anyone remember Ivan Antonov and his trip up the Anderson chain (Starfire Universe)??

What both sides need to be doing is waging peace. On the Arcanan side, nobody is really wanting a war except the Shakira who are working on a domestic conspiracy. For Sharona, as other posters have pointed out trust is an issue. But as I've pointed out previously, Velvelig and his band should be reporting in with an entirely new menu of possibilities for Sharona to deal with. A war that neither side can actually win is tragically wastful of both life and treasure.

Don

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I suspect that Markan had not yet seen the text of
that treaty when he called Janeki "my crown prince."

I'd forgotten on Friday that Markan had specific orders
to co-operate with the PAAF. Those orders included the
four battalions he brought to Salby, from Windlord Garsal
down to the lowest ranker. They might not have included
the rest of his brigade, left in Camryn. They certainly
did not apply to other Uromathans.

All of Markan's troops are on the Far Frontier,
involved with fighting the war against strangers.
I deem them comparable to GRR Martin's Night Watch.
The actions of Uromathans at home on Sharona are not
affected by what the border guards do.

As always, we both believe what we wish to believe.

Howard

PeterZ wrote:That depends on whether Markan's statement described a change in his personal allegiance or a reflection of what the treaty creating the Empire stipulates.

I suspect Markan simply voiced what the treaty codified.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:That happened *after* Janaki had died,
and the battle was over.
It was an emotional response to the events.
It did not necessarily bind Markan to Janaki's suzerain, Zindel,
and even less necessarily to Janaki's heir.
(Lawyers might argue over that, if they want to.)

It was also an action on the Far Frontier,
forty thousand miles from home,
and in the face of the enemy.
How could it bind Markan's colleagues on Sharona itself?
How does this impulsive act by Markan, a mere statement,
not made until after Janaki was dead,
and the battle was fought and won,
provide evidence of the duties and loyalties of those
Uromathans who are still on Sharona?

HTM

n7axw wrote:Imagine, for example, dragons soaring high enough above an advancing Sharonian army to be out of range of its artillery and drop crystals with explosive spells powerful enough to level a city.

The problem here is that Arcana has shown no capacity to make delayed activation spells that powerful. In fact the only delayed activation spells we have seen are grenades and the Arcanan version of landmines. Furthermore at Fort Salby the engineer who demoed the forts walls was killed by falling debris. The text even indicates it wasn't an unusual occurrence in demo work.

We can draw one of two conclusions from this:
1. Arcana has complete disregard for their own trained (and somewhat rare) personnel.
2. Arcana is having difficulty with delayed activation spellware for spells above a level of power.

The text indicates conclusion one is not likely, so I am speculate that it is the second. The second conclusion also explains why both armies were destroyed in the only mention of mass destruction spells being used (although it may have been made impossible for the losing army to withdraw).

We also have to acknowledge that Arcana has mandated the destruction of all data and spell ware involving spells of mass destruction. Unless some group (like the Shakira) want to admit they still have it, then it will likely take some time to reproduce the necessary research (maybe years).

I do not expect that we will see spells of mass destruction implemented before some semblance of sanity is restored. The Shakira might use them to in an attempt to take over, but I suspect they will decide to remain hidden and work from the shadows than take chances in a complete destruction scenario.

I believe that we are likely to see a stand off, and uneasy truce between Sharona and Arkana. Fore that to happen each side would have to learn what is actually happening at the front, and the potential for that has already been put in place by the authors.