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Possible way to take out the OBS

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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Max   » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:20 pm

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I was thinking it more likely that:

A) They ran a sim with a high tech enclave to see what was likely to happen. In fact they would have run several...

B) The enclaves leaked radiation; enough that the Gabba were sure to find it...

C) Various alternates were tried with various rules and all the less drastic alternatives either broke down or leaked tech...

D) They concluded that something more drastic was needed. The sims made the religious repression route the most viable.

E) In the same spirit as the old "Cosmic Computer" story, letting people know what to expect made the result ineffective. The only way to make it work was to shoot the opposition...
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Duckk   » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:48 pm

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That assumes facts not in evidence. For one, that Langhorne ran said sims, came to that conclusion, but then told no one on the opposition side about them. For another, that said emissions of their muted tech base are obvious on an interstellar scale (which, as the current existence of the Temple and the OBS indicates, strikes me as unlikely, to put it mildly). Or for that matter, that said emissions problem wouldn't have been noticed and rectified by the operation planners before they ever left Earth. Given the paranoia and degree of care that went into planning Operation Ark, I find it highly implausible - to say the least - that the mission planners wouldn't have field tested or run their own simulations.
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:23 am

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Max wrote:I was thinking it more likely that:

A) They ran a sim with a high tech enclave to see what was likely to happen. In fact they would have run several...

B) The enclaves leaked radiation; enough that the Gabba were sure to find it...

C) Various alternates were tried with various rules and all the less drastic alternatives either broke down or leaked tech...

D) They concluded that something more drastic was needed. The sims made the religious repression route the most viable.

E) In the same spirit as the old "Cosmic Computer" story, letting people know what to expect made the result ineffective. The only way to make it work was to shoot the opposition...


More likely they ran a social development simulation and came to obvious results: in a few centuries the enclaves would turn into the closed elitarists group, that would rule the "outsiders" with help of "techno-magic". It would be far too easy for enclave dvellers to postpone the technology rediscovery indefinitely under the pretex of "maybe we should wait a little more - just in case" - and mantain the situation.

And this situation would be far harder to disable than the Church...
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Duckk   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:27 am

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So instead, they created the Church of God Awaiting - another closed off elitist group that primarily inhabits a high tech enclave. Your conclusion is contradictory with your premise.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:58 am

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Duckk wrote:So instead, they created the Church of God Awaiting - another closed off elitist group that primarily inhabits a high tech enclave. Your conclusion is contradictory with your premise.


No. You didn't understood the difference. The Church itself didn't have any high-tech in comission and they didn't use it to control the situation. Basically the Church is "everyone equival" scenario, where the controlling party - i.e. the Church - couldn't abuse their exclusive access to high-tech either (because they didn't have any)

Just compare the situations:

1) Dr. Pei scenario - the limited high-tech groups that control the low-tech outsiders and limit the avaliable technology.

2) Langhorne scenario - the low-tech "outsiders" controlled THEMSELVES and limit the avaliable technology by themselves.

The first scenario is pretty prone to corruption, abuse of power and elitarian thinking. Bascially, no one could even guarantee, that the high-tech elite would EVER decide to share their knowlege with others. Just imagine the situation - the techno-aristocracy rule for centuries, their position is highly privileged, and then someone would decide "well, it was great times, but you know, maybe we should share our knowlege with
vulgar herd outside?" I really doubt that this would work well.

On the other hand, the Church model are MUCH more predictable in long therms. There is no abuse of high-tech power in Langhorne model - because no one have acsess to the high-tech. And when we decided to change the model, all we need is just to make "Divine Revelation" and tell them "Praise, mortals! The God Allmighty in his divine visdom decided that Proscription must be lifted and more knowlege must became avaliable to everyone! And anyone who said otherwise is heretic!"
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:59 am

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Just imagine the situation, if there would be a Dr. Pei model, and it would became corrupted. We would have techno-aristocracy on the Safehold - with real high-tech, to continiously control and suppress any outside attempts in high-tech development. It would be much harder to owerthrew than ANY Church.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 9:17 am

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I don't recall anything about high tech enclaves.

Alexandria was keeping a the TF true history, and blueprints/knowledge etc to jumpstart progress when time came plus some limited tech like the NEATs.

but nowhere have we seen any indication that they were planning on keeping lots of tech around in very stealthy bunkers.

at least not until it became clear that langhorne was going to dig a hole and never leave leave it. sure after that they set up Nimue's cave and shan wei started to seed people like Jermiarh Sarmac & co

BUT

none of what we have heard about would have been these tecno-wizard sorcerous cities that are being mentioned
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:37 pm

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Here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6478&p=170138&hilit=technological+enclaves#p170138
The command crew (under the original plan) were to be given two options once the colony was fully up and running. Option A would be to have their own memories adjusted to delete any memory of high technology and then to join the rest of the colony population. Option B would be to retain their memories, but in that case they were supposed to live in isolated communities, with little or no contact with the rest of Safehold. This, in fact, is why Zion was located in such a relatively inhospitable surroundings and why the Alexandria Enclave was located on what equated to Antarctica. The youngest of the command crew could be expected to live to a point well past the end of the "complete ban on technology" period by the original mission planners, and if they chose to remain in one of the very small "high-tech" enclaves, ... but they were supposed to retain the technological "seed corn" for the descendents of the other colonists once the initial hiding. Was over.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Duckk   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:57 pm

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viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6230&p=160821

Is it possible that the enclaves as envisioned under the original plan would have gone off the tracks in the half millennium of low-tech? Yes, it is, of course. That plan was far less likely to have gone astray than Langhorne's "solution to the Gbaba problem," however. It was also the basis for the Alexandria Enclave's disagreement with Langhorne's policy of book burning. They were trying to follow the original mission plan; Langhorne was the one who'd trashed his own orders and gone off on a wild tangent.

I would have bolded the whole thing for emphasis, but that would render the act meaningless. Langhorne has never been remotely close to what the mission planners intended for Operation Ark, period.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Possible way to take out the OBS
Post by Dilandu   » Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:00 pm

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Duckk wrote:
I would have bolded the whole thing for emphasis, but that would render the act meaningless. Langhorne has never been remotely close to what the mission planners intended for Operation Ark, period.


Well, assuming the fact that Langhorne somehow came into the overall command and moreover - was able to convert a good part of other high-placed - it seems that the mission planners didn't do job really well.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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