New LAC's

The current-generation Manticoran flat pack missile pod, first mentioned in "Storm from the Shadows" is the FIRST missile pod with a fusion reactor. Prior missile pods, such as those used in "War of Honor" used capacitors to start their Mk-23 or Mk-16 Missiles.

Storm from the shadows: """But a missile pod was something else entirely. Especially a pod like the current-generation Manticoran "flatpack" pods with their on-board fusion plants."""

Older missile pods for fusion powered missiles used plasma capacitors to start the missiles fusion plants.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
"""These are plasma capacitors, and each missile pod is equipped with sufficient capacitor capacity (ouch) to initiate fusion in all of its missiles, whether they be Mark 16s or Mark 23s.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
""" (3) The loading/arming/firing sequence on a pod actually requires the pods' capacitors to be "charged" for considerably longer intervals, including the intervals in which they are being held "in the queue" before launch,"""

Jonathan_S wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:I have no idea where you've gotten the idea that early Mk-16 and Mk-23 flat-pack pods never had reactors at all. Of course, it's been a year or more since I read the series, so I may have forgotten that part, but all the discussion and work I've done with BuNine has had the reactors in the flat-packs from the start.

I went and looked, since I'd have a vague recollection that the pod reactors came in with the tractors; and found the following in my ebook copy of Mission of Honor (Chapter 21)

Mission of Honor: Ch 21 wrote:The original “flatpack” pods, which had come in with the final generation of superconductor capacitors, had carried twelve MDMs each. Then along had come the next-generation flatpacks, with internal tractor systems. They’d still managed to keep capacity up to a dozen birds, but only until they’d shifted to the fusion-powered Mark 23. At that point, the designers had been forced to figure out how to cram in the pod’s own fusion plant, since its new power budget had to be able to spin up the Mark 23s’ plants at launch.

So my recollection was wrong; they got one generation of internal tractor pods, firing capacitor powered MDMs (Mk 41s I presume), before being forced to incorporate microfusion plants.

But the text also implies that you need lots more power to fire up the fusion powered Mk23s. (I seem to recall elsewhere that RFC indicated you might need to basically jump-start microfusion plants with near-critical power/density plasma. If so then, unlike a full sized pinnace or gravmak fusion plant, they wouldn't have a true cold-start capability regardless of the size of electrical system you could feed them from.)

darrell wrote:The current-generation Manticoran flat pack missile pod, first mentioned in "Storm from the Shadows" is the FIRST missile pod with a fusion reactor. Prior missile pods, such as those used in "War of Honor" used capacitors to start their Mk-23 or Mk-16 Missiles.

Storm from the shadows: """But a missile pod was something else entirely. Especially a pod like the current-generation Manticoran "flatpack" pods with their on-board fusion plants."""

Older missile pods for fusion powered missiles used plasma capacitors to start the missiles fusion plants.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
"""These are plasma capacitors, and each missile pod is equipped with sufficient capacitor capacity (ouch) to initiate fusion in all of its missiles, whether they be Mark 16s or Mark 23s.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
""" (3) The loading/arming/firing sequence on a pod actually requires the pods' capacitors to be "charged" for considerably longer intervals, including the intervals in which they are being held "in the queue" before launch,"""

Jonathan_S wrote: found the following in my ebook copy of Mission of Honor (Chapter 21)

Mission of Honor: Ch 21 wrote:The original “flatpack” pods, which had come in with the final generation of superconductor capacitors, had carried twelve MDMs each. Then along had come the next-generation flatpacks, with internal tractor systems. They’d still managed to keep capacity up to a dozen birds, but only until they’d shifted to the fusion-powered Mark 23. At that point, the designers had been forced to figure out how to cram in the pod’s own fusion plant, since its new power budget had to be able to spin up the Mark 23s’ plants at launch.

Jonathan_S wrote: So my recollection was wrong; they got one generation of internal tractor pods, firing capacitor powered MDMs (Mk 41s I presume), before being forced to incorporate microfusion plants.

But the text also implies that you need lots more power to fire up the fusion powered Mk23s. (I seem to recall elsewhere that RFC indicated you might need to basically jump-start microfusion plants with near-critical power/density plasma. If so then, unlike a full sized pinnace or gravmak fusion plant, they wouldn't have a true cold-start capability regardless of the size of electrical system you could feed them from.)

I know that infodump is a little newer than the MoH book but personally I tend to take the book text over infodumps, when they conflict (except where RFC is specifically correcting a book). That's because in general the pearls are just archived posts he makes here or on Baen and they're often from memory; without all the checking of the tech bible and text-ev that a book gets in the writing and editing process. It's easy to misremember things when you are posting a quick response; especially the the specific technical point may not be the core of your argument.

Which is a long way of saying until we see some additional piece of info weighing in on this I'm sticking with Mission of Honor's claim that you do need micro fusion plants in pods that carry micro fusion powered missiles.

darrell wrote:The current-generation Manticoran flat pack missile pod, first mentioned in "Storm from the Shadows" is the FIRST missile pod with a fusion reactor. Prior missile pods, such as those used in "War of Honor" used capacitors to start their Mk-23 or Mk-16 Missiles.

Storm from the shadows: """But a missile pod was something else entirely. Especially a pod like the current-generation Manticoran "flatpack" pods with their on-board fusion plants."""

Older missile pods for fusion powered missiles used plasma capacitors to start the missiles fusion plants.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
"""These are plasma capacitors, and each missile pod is equipped with sufficient capacitor capacity (ouch) to initiate fusion in all of its missiles, whether they be Mark 16s or Mark 23s.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
""" (3) The loading/arming/firing sequence on a pod actually requires the pods' capacitors to be "charged" for considerably longer intervals, including the intervals in which they are being held "in the queue" before launch,"""

I see where the problem is. You think that plasma capacitors are different from other capacitors. They're not. All capacitors mentioned by David, whether in the books or in info dumps, are plasma capacitors. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect M$200.

This has been the standard for BuNine to work from for years. The only difference I can see from textev quoted here is that early flatpacks had their capacitors charged before they left the podlayer, and later version carry their own fusion reactor. That's it. Current missile pods still use capacitors to start up the missile fusion reactors - it's just that the current capacitors get charged from the pod's onboard reactor, rather than from an external source prior to leaving the ship.

This is why current pods have longer endurance, since the pod reactor can keep a trickle flow of plasma going into the caps, as opposed to the older, shorter duration pods that would lose cap plasma charge over time.

Edit: Also, it might be wise to not hold everything you read in an infodump as sacred writ. There have been occasions when BuNine has pointed out something to David, which renders his earlier stance as "wrong", in the sense that pre-Great Resizing ships were "wrong".

In case you didn't know, Tom Pope, the driving force behind BuNine, was one of the original people who "corrected" David about the size of his ships compared to their written mass. I get my info from Tom and others.

So lets see ... your point was that earlier missile pods just used capacitors and didn't have fusion reactors. ... sounds to me like you agree with my point that you don't need a working fusion reactor to start a fusion reactor.

There is something else in your post that does not compute. You claim that the fusion reactor on the flat pack pods charges a capacitor. Everything that I have read ... from the FTL recon drone to the fact that fusion powered missiles have better EW says that fusion reactors have more power than a capacitor. My belief is that DW was talking about older missile pods in the infodump, after all, he has talked about older technology before.

Can you please explain to me why, if fusion power plants have more power than capacitors, you would even need a capacitor on a missile pod that has a fusion power plant???

MaxxQ wrote:

darrell wrote:The current-generation Manticoran flat pack missile pod, first mentioned in "Storm from the Shadows" is the FIRST missile pod with a fusion reactor. Prior missile pods, such as those used in "War of Honor" used capacitors to start their Mk-23 or Mk-16 Missiles.

Storm from the shadows: """But a missile pod was something else entirely. Especially a pod like the current-generation Manticoran "flatpack" pods with their on-board fusion plants."""

Older missile pods for fusion powered missiles used plasma capacitors to start the missiles fusion plants.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
"""These are plasma capacitors, and each missile pod is equipped with sufficient capacitor capacity (ouch) to initiate fusion in all of its missiles, whether they be Mark 16s or Mark 23s.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/287/1
""" (3) The loading/arming/firing sequence on a pod actually requires the pods' capacitors to be "charged" for considerably longer intervals, including the intervals in which they are being held "in the queue" before launch,"""

I see where the problem is. You think that plasma capacitors are different from other capacitors. They're not. All capacitors mentioned by David, whether in the books or in info dumps, are plasma capacitors. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go, do not collect M$200.

This has been the standard for BuNine to work from for years. The only difference I can see from textev quoted here is that early flatpacks had their capacitors charged before they left the podlayer, and later version carry their own fusion reactor. That's it. Current missile pods still use capacitors to start up the missile fusion reactors - it's just that the current capacitors get charged from the pod's onboard reactor, rather than from an external source prior to leaving the ship.

This is why current pods have longer endurance, since the pod reactor can keep a trickle flow of plasma going into the caps, as opposed to the older, shorter duration pods that would lose cap plasma charge over time.

Edit: Also, it might be wise to not hold everything you read in an infodump as sacred writ. There have been occasions when BuNine has pointed out something to David, which renders his earlier stance as "wrong", in the sense that pre-Great Resizing ships were "wrong".

In case you didn't know, Tom Pope, the driving force behind BuNine, was one of the original people who "corrected" David about the size of his ships compared to their written mass. I get my info from Tom and others.

darrell wrote:Can you please explain to me why, if fusion power plants have more power than capacitors, you would even need a capacitor on a missile pod that has a fusion power plant???

Batteries can hold more energy than capacitors, yet capacitors are an inescapable element of modern electronics.

Here's the problem: The pod has to supply enough plasma to kickstart the reactors in the missiles at a moment's notice. The reactor in the pod is used to charge the capacitor and keep it topped up until the launch order comes; it doesn't have enough plasma flow to provide the initial charge for the missiles on its own.

The E wrote:

darrell wrote:Can you please explain to me why, if fusion power plants have more power than capacitors, you would even need a capacitor on a missile pod that has a fusion power plant???

Batteries can hold more energy than capacitors, yet capacitors are an inescapable element of modern electronics.

Here's the problem: The pod has to supply enough plasma to kickstart the reactors in the missiles at a moment's notice. The reactor in the pod is used to charge the capacitor and keep it topped up until the launch order comes; it doesn't have enough plasma flow to provide the initial charge for the missiles on its own.

Yep. Caps provide a huge, nearly instant spike of energy that is needed to start the missile reactors, whereas the pod reactor has more energy, but passes it along at a slower, more steady rate.

IOW, it's easier for the reactor to trickle a charge to 10 or 12 caps over time, keeping them topped up for instant use than it is to try to instantly start all 10 or 12 missile reactors at once from only the reactor. This is pretty basic electronics stuff, and why caps are used damn near everywhere.

The E wrote:

darrell wrote:Can you please explain to me why, if fusion power plants have more power than capacitors, you would even need a capacitor on a missile pod that has a fusion power plant???

Batteries can hold more energy than capacitors, yet capacitors are an inescapable element of modern electronics.

Ludicrously more energy than capacitors. Even the power in a dinky little 1.5 volt, 2000 mAH AA battery would require a massive capacitor to hold (@ 1.5 volts). I think I screwed up something in the conversions but I got in excess of 1000 farads; where most capacitors for electronics work are measured in picofarads (trillionths of a farad).
On the other hand that battery, even under very heavy draw, takes a half hour or more to dump it's power; the capacitor could do so in under a second.

So using a fusion reactor to power up a capactor to start a missile could make sense; especially if you were willing to light the pod's missiles up sequentially. Then you only need enough capacitor power to light a single missile and you can recharge between each additional fusion reactor start. (And if you're really cute you can recharge ever faster by charging from the pod's reactor as well as the reactor of each additional missile)

Bottom line:

You do not need a fusion power source to start a micro fusion bottle reactor.

So, firing MK23s from a LAC, should you choose to do so, is acceptable fodder for internet one-up-man-ship.

Relax wrote:Bottom line:

You do not need a fusion power source to start a micro fusion bottle reactor.

In theory. I don't think David agrees with your theory.

Duckk wrote:You're missing the point. Your mass and size figures are incredibly off. Your 5 CA grasers by itself would mass nearly as much as an entire Shrike. It is literally impossible to fit them on a LAC sized platform.

Look at MaxxQ's Star Knight renderings. Look at how big those energy mounts are. Do you seriously think that you can fit those on a LAC while still having room for little things like a power plant or a crew?

Where does the time go???
I haven't looked in on this thread for a while but... as I am re-reading the entire Honor series in anticipation of the next book and while I wait for the end of winter, it occurred to me that LAC's would be more effective if they had grasers for and aft that each could pivot 180 degrees off the line of travel so that (for example) a LAC could engage a target a few degrees to port or starboard and the graser would pivot to maintain contact and lock on the same spot (say on a SD/P) till the point where the LAC was passing 90 degrees of the target then the aft graser would engage and continue contact on target till the LAC passed the target completely.
I think this would have the effect of punching a hole through or slicing a significant length of the target.

If someone else has already posted this idea, I'm not trying to steal your idea, only with 12 pages pf posts, I did not see it.