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Next Bolthole devellopment

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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by kzt   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:05 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:(Plus how many of them would Manticore still have stockpiled?)

Their main ASPs were apparently on the space stations that got blowed up, so probably not a huge number. Probably many thousands, but still.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:42 pm

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As for the pods I assume that the larger Havenite missile require larger pods and hence wider spacing on the pod rails. It's probably fairly straightforward to build adapters to fit the smaller RMN pods onto those rails; but I think it'd waste a lot of space. You should be able to fit more missiles if you have Haven build new pods of their standard size but fitted for the smaller RMN missiles. However I think the real problem is that you apparently need different infrastructure for charging capacitor powered missiles in pods than you do for igniting the micro-fusion reactors of Mk23s. I think for the later you need a super high-temp plasma conduit to load jumpstart the reactor with near critical temp/pressure plasma bled off a ship's reactor. Haven's current SD(P)s presumably wouldn't have that capability, since all their missiles are capacitor powered. Retrofitting that line, through all the armored bulkheads, is a much harder problem that adapting the size of a pod.

You could probably give them the pods of the even older Mk41 capacitor powered missiles; but I'm not sure those are significantly better than the current Havenite missile. A bit smaller, but probably not worth the bother. (Plus how many of them would Manticore still have stockpiled?)


I thought only Apollo missles have an reactor inside! I guess Standard MK23 missle has normal energy rings and cells inside!
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:59 pm

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Maldorian wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:However I think the real problem is that you apparently need different infrastructure for charging capacitor powered missiles in pods than you do for igniting the micro-fusion reactors of Mk23s. I think for the later you need a super high-temp plasma conduit to load jumpstart the reactor with near critical temp/pressure plasma bled off a ship's reactor. Haven's current SD(P)s presumably wouldn't have that capability, since all their missiles are capacitor powered. Retrofitting that line, through all the armored bulkheads, is a much harder problem that adapting the size of a pod.

You could probably give them the pods of the even older Mk41 capacitor powered missiles; but I'm not sure those are significantly better than the current Havenite missile. A bit smaller, but probably not worth the bother. (Plus how many of them would Manticore still have stockpiled?)


I thought only Apollo missles have an reactor inside! I guess Standard MK23 missle has normal energy rings and cells inside!

Nope, Mk23s were the first fusion powered missiles. Apollo was the later, and larger, Mk23E variant with the FTL fire control link.

But microfusion powered Mk23s MDMs gave you the extra energy budget for really good jammers and decoys. Plus the reactor & fuel was smaller than the capacitors needed for a 3-drive missile so it was also smaller than the 1st gen, capacitor powered, Mk41 MDMs.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Theemile   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:02 pm

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Maldorian wrote:[

I thought only Apollo missles have an reactor inside! I guess Standard MK23 missle has normal energy rings and cells inside!


All Mk 16 and mk 23 variants are powered by the microfusion reactors. The original Mk 41 MDM (and everyone else's MDMs) use multiple capacitor stacks.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by dan92677   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:40 pm

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I just hope that the "new" tech team comes up with a wormhole generator.

Wouldn't that fix the SL as well as Deitweiler, as soon as the GA localizes them, that is....
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:55 pm

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darrell wrote:Here is how I see it:

The Havenite SDP has no broadside tubes, so it should be a "relatively" simple problem to retrofit their pod rails to fire older Mk-23 flat pack pods.


There isn't any "retrofit" involved with "Bolthole Specials" -- those SD(p)s described in textev as the first joint ships.

The whole idea of a 'flat pack' pod is that the pods are all the same outer dimensions and connections with only the content changed; any ship that can handle MK-23 flat-packs
can also handle MK16 and Apollo pods.

Whether a "legacy" capability to accept Havenite pods until they're all used up will be designed into the spacing is an open question. I tend to think not because it might introduce unnecessary complications in the Manticoran fire control.

darrell wrote:As far as being able to send FTL communications, that would be accomplished when a havenite ship has it's wedge and compensator upgraded.


The "Bolthole Special" SD(P)s will be routed through Beowulf for installation of Keyhole II. That implies that they will be designed to dispense Apollo pods, with all the hardware and power requirements built in from the keel out. Keyhole II will provide all the FTL fire-control links and possible a high-bandwidth FTL comm capability as well. The ships themselves don't need FTL fire-control as long as the Keyhole II is within light-speed comm range.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:26 pm

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dan92677 wrote:I just hope that the "new" tech team comes up with a wormhole generator.

Wouldn't that fix the SL as well as Deitweiler, as soon as the GA localizes them, that is....


Why? It all depends on whether they find Felix or Darius first. If they find Felix first, an assault at both ends secures them the wormhole, which is almost certainly way outside of the hyper limit. Beyond that, it's mostly a question of which route is fastest to bring in the heavies for the assault.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:35 am

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Just rereading TSVW and the description of the battle where Helen Zilwicki's squadron defends the convoy.

Warshawski sails are used by ships in hyper to provide propulsion, as they would be destroyed if they bring up their wedges.

OK, what if S&S could give missiles Warshawski sails?

In order to get beyond wedge interference range before lighting off the impeller a missile is launched using some form of railgun technology so if the missile was designed to go directly to Warshawski sails instead of the normal wedge could that work? And if it could it would be a game changer.

(or is that something to be added to the ship that must not be named along with its weapon that must not be named)
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by munroburton   » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:16 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Just rereading TSVW and the description of the battle where Helen Zilwicki's squadron defends the convoy.

Warshawski sails are used by ships in hyper to provide propulsion, as they would be destroyed if they bring up their wedges.

OK, what if S&S could give missiles Warshawski sails?

In order to get beyond wedge interference range before lighting off the impeller a missile is launched using some form of railgun technology so if the missile was designed to go directly to Warshawski sails instead of the normal wedge could that work? And if it could it would be a game changer.

(or is that something to be added to the ship that must not be named along with its weapon that must not be named)


Without being in a grav wave, the sails would only generate a few gravities of acceleration - not hundreds and certainly not 96,000. They also require the use of at least 8 alpha nodes - each one more massive than a missile currently is.
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Re: Next Bolthole devellopment
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:19 am

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George J. Smith wrote:Just rereading TSVW and the description of the battle where Helen Zilwicki's squadron defends the convoy.

Warshawski sails are used by ships in hyper to provide propulsion, as they would be destroyed if they bring up their wedges.

OK, what if S&S could give missiles Warshawski sails?

In order to get beyond wedge interference range before lighting off the impeller a missile is launched using some form of railgun technology so if the missile was designed to go directly to Warshawski sails instead of the normal wedge could that work? And if it could it would be a game changer.

(or is that something to be added to the ship that must not be named along with its weapon that must not be named)


Weeeelll

Several issues spring to mind. One, to generate a sail, you need alpha nodes, which would cut into the mass and space budgets for those missiles. Two, to use a sail, you need two sails to balance each other out, which means a second impeller node ring, further reducing the available mass. This means that we're already talking about a missile that is at least the size of an MDM, but which cannot be as efficiently built as a proper RMN MDM (because normal MDMs put all their various impeller rings at the back of the missile, this notional missile would have to find space for an impeller ring between the warhead bus and the actual warhead).

But above all, there's this: Combat in grav waves is exceedingly rare. Detection ranges are low, so loitering in a grav wave isn't an effective way of catching prey (Whereas loitering at a wave's exit points can offer good results). Building a missile optimized for this sort of environment doesn't make a whole lot of sense; while they would certainly offer an overwhelming advantage in that particular scenario, the scenario itself is too unlikely to make the necessary R&D investment wortwhile.

So, TL;DR: Yes, a warshawski sail missile would be a game changer. Unfortunately, the game being changed is largely irrelevant.
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