What is going on in Talbot?

At the risk of bringing up the "needs to be dead horse" (those battle-worthless Solarian SD's sitting somewhere in Spindle), it might make sense to equip the dang things as fire control system's a la an armored"Moriarty" style SDF missile control center, and pack them off to the various Talbott systems that at last notice only have LACs and SDF pods to discourage FF from getting frisky.

This would involve minimal crewing to get the damn things out of Spindle and Manticoran space, and then using planetary crewing to defend the home turf a la the status of Grayson at Flag in Exile, that is, the ships aren't worth all that much until they are fully reconfigured, but they are better than the lack of a space navy that was there before.

Picture a squadron of FF battlecruisers popping across the hyper wall and detecting a squadron of unknown SD's (based on impeller size) acting as an effective deterrent, telling them to get the hell out of Nuncian space, etc. with sufficient LAC and missile pod arrays to insure compliance. The goal isn't even to take the SD's into battle. It's not like FF or pirate battlecruisers could stand up to even minimally crewed SLN SD's let alone GA missile pods and LACS, though those same ships would be toast against any GA level space navy.

SharkHunter wrote:At the risk of bringing up the "needs to be dead horse" (those battle-worthless Solarian SD's sitting somewhere in Spindle), it might make sense to equip the dang things as fire control system's a la an armored"Moriarty" style SDF missile control center, and pack them off to the various Talbott systems that at last notice only have LACs and SDF pods to discourage FF from getting frisky.

This would involve minimal crewing to get the damn things out of Spindle and Manticoran space, and then using planetary crewing to defend the home turf a la the status of Grayson at Flag in Exile, that is, the ships aren't worth all that much until they are fully reconfigured, but they are better than the lack of a space navy that was there before.

Picture a squadron of FF battlecruisers popping across the hyper wall and detecting a squadron of unknown SD's (based on impeller size) acting as an effective deterrent, telling them to get the hell out of Nuncian space, etc. with sufficient LAC and missile pod arrays to insure compliance. The goal isn't even to take the SD's into battle. It's not like FF or pirate battlecruisers could stand up to even minimally crewed SLN SD's let alone GA missile pods and LACS, though those same ships would be toast against any GA level space navy.

Refitting of them for more fire control is likely to involve use of precious refit/repair/construction resources that are not available along with time that could result in (e.g.) lots of cheap training simulators to do the training job and actual Moriarty platforms out there.

If we abandon that call to improve their combat utility - in accord with Duckk's Maxim that they are useless as weapon platforms - there may still be something to their use as first-stage training platforms and visible deterrents. That they suck up so many people isn't a problem if you want to train a lot of people aboard one, even if you'd need to transfer them to a sim or new unit for Manticoran tech acquaintance later. that they're not effective weapons platforms won't be a problem if system defense is really in the hands of modern LAC's and missile pods and their role is to give people a familiar yardstick to fear the defenders.

There may be some worries about dropping the 10,000 best and brightest of a developing system's population of potential spacers into a ship that may go BOOM if any of the raw trainees hit the wrong button in Fusion One. The training cadre (the very thin cadre) may hopefully prevent that - hopefully.

SharkHunter wrote:At the risk of bringing up the "needs to be dead horse" (those battle-worthless Solarian SD's sitting somewhere in Spindle), it might make sense to equip the dang things as fire control system's a la an armored"Moriarty" style SDF missile control center, and pack them off to the various Talbott systems that at last notice only have LACs and SDF pods to discourage FF from getting frisky.

This would involve minimal crewing to get the damn things out of Spindle and Manticoran space, and then using planetary crewing to defend the home turf a la the status of Grayson at Flag in Exile, that is, the ships aren't worth all that much until they are fully reconfigured, but they are better than the lack of a space navy that was there before.

Picture a squadron of FF battlecruisers popping across the hyper wall and detecting a squadron of unknown SD's (based on impeller size) acting as an effective deterrent, telling them to get the hell out of Nuncian space, etc. with sufficient LAC and missile pod arrays to insure compliance. The goal isn't even to take the SD's into battle. It's not like FF or pirate battlecruisers could stand up to even minimally crewed SLN SD's let alone GA missile pods and LACS, though those same ships would be toast against any GA level space navy.

Actually..... that makes at least a little sense. The biggest issue with the Moriarty control platforms was they had no armor. And once the Mistletoe platforms struck, they not only took out relays but possibly also the actual crewed platforms.

The only major thing they'd have to adjust to those useless hulks, would be the modifications to permit the FTL grav-pulses. But even that's not strictly necessary if you park a few of the Keyhole-II System-Defense variants nearby so simple, standard control links work. Multiple gives it the depth in case someone else manages a Mistletoe style strike.


Minimal crew to move em from Spindle to the various Talbott systems, and then merely a crew in CIC and a few fusion watch crews. Then you get your armored manned fire control platform for the Mycroft's, you aren't using those beasts offensively, and the size/strength of the wedge implies the RMN has SD's in every single system to terrify those poor FF buggers.

Somtaaw wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:At the risk of bringing up the "needs to be dead horse" (those battle-worthless Solarian SD's sitting somewhere in Spindle), it might make sense to equip the dang things as fire control system's a la an armored"Moriarty" style SDF missile control center, and pack them off to the various Talbott systems that at last notice only have LACs and SDF pods to discourage FF from getting frisky.

This would involve minimal crewing to get the damn things out of Spindle and Manticoran space, and then using planetary crewing to defend the home turf a la the status of Grayson at Flag in Exile, that is, the ships aren't worth all that much until they are fully reconfigured, but they are better than the lack of a space navy that was there before.

Picture a squadron of FF battlecruisers popping across the hyper wall and detecting a squadron of unknown SD's (based on impeller size) acting as an effective deterrent, telling them to get the hell out of Nuncian space, etc. with sufficient LAC and missile pod arrays to insure compliance. The goal isn't even to take the SD's into battle. It's not like FF or pirate battlecruisers could stand up to even minimally crewed SLN SD's let alone GA missile pods and LACS, though those same ships would be toast against any GA level space navy.

Actually..... that makes at least a little sense. The biggest issue with the Moriarty control platforms was they had no armor. And once the Mistletoe platforms struck, they not only took out relays but possibly also the actual crewed platforms.

The only major thing they'd have to adjust to those useless hulks, would be the modifications to permit the FTL grav-pulses. But even that's not strictly necessary if you park a few of the Keyhole-II System-Defense variants nearby so simple, standard control links work. Multiple gives it the depth in case someone else manages a Mistletoe style strike.


Minimal crew to move em from Spindle to the various Talbott systems, and then merely a crew in CIC and a few fusion watch crews. Then you get your armored manned fire control platform for the Mycroft's, you aren't using those beasts offensively, and the size/strength of the wedge implies the RMN has SD's in every single system to terrify those poor FF buggers.

You’re oversimplifying this more than a little.

If you are turning the old SLN SDs into the base for the Mycroft platforms, you will first need to gut one or more of the missile mags and add the ~70-100 Ktons of computers to control the system, and then add the FTL com systems to the outside to communicate with the remote platforms. So you need to find a free SD shipyard to do the overhaul.

Next, you need to drive the ship there – that means workable hyper generators, sensors, fusion plants, and nodes – which also means serviceable lifesupport and living areas for the crew.

Then you get to the duty station. The biggest issue about the Mycroft platforms (which you are trying to correct) is the defensibility of the control platforms. This means that you need to man the SD’s defenses, in addition to the Mycroft core, so you will need to keep the defense controls and sensors, ECM, pdlcs, sidewalls, wedge, and CMs online in addition to the Moriarity systems. So you will need to keep the fusion reactors running and the lifesupport running for the crews to man and repair those systems.

My point here is you will need to nearly fully man the ship and keep it repaired and functional, even if it is JUST the Mycroft core. And Haven has yards producing SD sized Moriarity platforms (in reaction to the same analysis you made) custom made for this need which can do the job better. And back to the point I’ve made 100 times or more – Manticore, Grayson, and Haven have 100s of better SDs they are sending to the breakers which can do the job better than an old SLN ship, and conform to the tech, software, training, and doctrine standards of the navies which use them and have crews trained on them.

The training for the Talbott Guard is going to have to start with some combination of existing military and police from the various Systems and Manticorian instructors.

You have more than two sets of needs here but essentialy it is broken down two ways. One if for some combination of ground troops and police (which serve and fill very differnt functions) and the other is your space based defence.

If you presume that each system already has a functioning military and police capability, that would be where you bring people up to speed with Manticore training and tactics. Even if you are using essentially Solly design weapons (both police and military) you still need to train the trainers. There is the need to maintain both existing planitary military and police and to train recruites for use in the Talbott Guard for use out-systems. We see Mike talking to the PM of Meyers and hedging mightily about when ground personal would be aviliable- from within the Talbott Cluster Manticorian systems- to assist with keeping order on planets that have been taken away from OFS/transtellars/had a successful revolution against the local tyrant.
Probably the initial training would be in each individual system. Yes, to work effectivly together they would then have to train jointly but 1st you need both the basic training and common training.

The SDFs will take a differnt set of skills primarily because it will be space based and there is going to need to be a drive to convert to RMN quality ships and equipment as fast as possible. That is a much higher level of training and often reeducation. Where the individual systems do have something more than ancient LACs, they probably aren't going to be able to just scrap ships- impeller only or hypercapable- yet as they should represent some actual patrol and combat capasity when used with modern RMN LACs. If nothing else, an older warship at least represents a threat that any attacker has to honor and pay attention to. Getting the existing SDF people used to RMN procedures and trained on the new equipment is going to be a priority but if you have a hypercapable DD, its another mobile weapons platform even if you are using older versions of SLN missiles. Can eat pirates for breakfast. Also recall that SLN has a tradition of getting the best performence out of what they have to use so that insight and mindset should improve the use of the older naval stuff in conjuntion with the new until the old stuff can be replaced and retired.


A major question is what will be the impact on RMN and Army as they dig into the existing Manticorian military (and police) to provide the experience trainers at all levels at the same time they need to reestablish thier own training sections that were lost with the orbital stations in Oyster Bay.

Theemile wrote:You’re oversimplifying this more than a little.

If you are turning the old SLN SDs into the base for the Mycroft platforms, you will first need to gut one or more of the missile mags and add the ~70-100 Ktons of computers to control the system, and then add the FTL com systems to the outside to communicate with the remote platforms. So you need to find a free SD shipyard to do the overhaul.

Well if you'd read, you actually DONT. If you park three or four of the system-defense Keyhole-II's with internal fusion cores, you don't need FTL comms to control Mycroft. The SD computers are fine, Manticore hasn't been upgrading their computer hardware as much as they've overhauled the SOFTWARE. With sublight links to the Keyhole-II's parked only a few hundred klicks away, they provide the FTL component, while the SD itself is simply the armored & crewed processor that even Moriarty required.

Theemile wrote:Next, you need to drive the ship there – that means workable hyper generators, sensors, fusion plants, and nodes – which also means serviceable lifesupport and living areas for the crew.

Then you get to the duty station. The biggest issue about the Mycroft platforms (which you are trying to correct) is the defensibility of the control platforms. This means that you need to man the SD’s defenses, in addition to the Mycroft core, so you will need to keep the defense controls and sensors, ECM, pdlcs, sidewalls, wedge, and CMs online in addition to the Moriarity systems. So you will need to keep the fusion reactors running and the lifesupport running for the crews to man and repair those systems.

You still require a manned platform either way, so while I admit you might need to do minor repairs, they also captured no less than 17 SD's totally intact with no damage at Spindle, if memory serves. Move one SD to each Talbott quadrant system, and it provides the manned computer core that the system defense requires, with the higher grade of computer processing that Keyhole-II's provide. You also won't need point defense, etc at all, because if you park FOUR Keyhole-II's at point blank range they provide the in-close defense.... that you don't really need unless someone manages to sneak recon drones with nukes right in and totally take out the SD in the first place. SD's being pretty damn tough, you'd need in the dozen to hundred range of drones getting that close, Keyhole's would absolutely massacre them.

Meanwhile, if there's ships trying to get in close, the SD is still providing the armored manned processing purpose, and Mycroft is massacring the incoming ships way beyond the range they could reach the SD that's going to be sitting in planetary orbit.

Theemile wrote:My point here is you will need to nearly fully man the ship and keep it repaired and functional, even if it is JUST the Mycroft core. And Haven has yards producing SD sized Moriarity platforms (in reaction to the same analysis you made) custom made for this need which can do the job better. And back to the point I’ve made 100 times or more – Manticore, Grayson, and Haven have 100s of better SDs they are sending to the breakers which can do the job better than an old SLN ship, and conform to the tech, software, training, and doctrine standards of the navies which use them and have crews trained on them.

Intact and undamaged ships that are sitting there, and merely need a software overhaul is just as good as the other ships. And actually no Haven does NOT have SD-sized Moriarty systems, that's what Foraker WANTED to put them in, and Theisman overruled her to get them in service faster. Fast forward six months, and Lovat happened and proved how terrible Moriarty is, and then the peace treaty and formation of anti-MAlign Grand Alliance, where they planned for Mycroft. Which so far as all evidence leads, still requires processing cores. Which brings ME right back to my points, a computer is a computer, and Manticore hasn't been pushing the edge of their computer hardware, only software. Their hardware changes were compensators, impellers, missiles, Ghost Rider, etc... no where did they suddenly make some form of quantum leap in computer hardware.

And hell, it's in the books somewhere, I think it was Henke who points it out, Solarian ships aren't all that bad, the basic systems are nearly as good as Manticoran, they just haven't been keeping up with the other developments, ala MDM's, and ECM, etc.

Somtaaw wrote:

Theemile wrote:You’re oversimplifying this more than a little.

If you are turning the old SLN SDs into the base for the Mycroft platforms, you will first need to gut one or more of the missile mags and add the ~70-100 Ktons of computers to control the system, and then add the FTL com systems to the outside to communicate with the remote platforms. So you need to find a free SD shipyard to do the overhaul.

Well if you'd read, you actually DONT. If you park three or four of the system-defense Keyhole-II's with internal fusion cores, you don't need FTL comms to control Mycroft. The SD computers are fine, Manticore hasn't been upgrading their computer hardware as much as they've overhauled the SOFTWARE. With sublight links to the Keyhole-II's parked only a few hundred klicks away, they provide the FTL component, while the SD itself is simply the armored & crewed processor that even Moriarty required.

I'll back off on the rest, but the heart of Apollo (which is what we're actually talking about here) is the addition of a 70,000 tons computer system on the controlling ship - ships which were retrofitted with Apollo had the back portion of the pod bay walled off (and Armored)for the on-board computer system which controlled the while Apollo firecontrol system.

Without the computers, the KHII modules are useless - they are just Firecontrol transmitters (with the defensive armaments)

As for the rest - do you really want to run a battle without a wedge and sidewalls? - without the wedge, the vulnerable top and bottom of the ship are exposed, and the exact location of the ship can be localized from a long distance away.

Duct tape the mycroft unit to the top of the ship.Wedge, side walls, and side armor all shield it a fair bit.

Mind you, a foreign crew trying t fly the thing is unlikely to succeed. Give a late WW2 American freighter to a pre-war US or UK crew. At "Helmsman, hard aport" the helmesman will turn the wheel the wrong way.

Why are SLN SDs better than the legacy RMN, RHN and GSN SDs? Almost five hundred of which were refitted to at least 1905 standards, with a small percentage as current as 1915. Those units are individually superior to captured SLN SDs by almost every measure, for every conceivable modern role.

Indeed, the same applies to several DN classes as well, in particular the Bellerophon. Remember the Scientist is only 6.8 million tons.

munroburton wrote:Why are SLN SDs better than the legacy RMN, RHN and GSN SDs? Almost five hundred of which were refitted to at least 1905 standards, with a small percentage as current as 1915. Those units are individually superior to captured SLN SDs by almost every measure, for every conceivable modern role.

Indeed, the same applies to several DN classes as well, in particular the Bellerophon. Remember the Scientist is only 6.8 million tons.

And that's the SLN "superdreadnaught"; the Vega isn't any larger. By Haven Sector standards, the SLN does not have SD's - it's a DN wall, where everyone else quit building them decades back.

The SLN "SD's" are in Talbott. There's that, and Spindle is accessible to the rest of the Quadrant in a way that Manticore is not. (The trip from Lynx - or Matapan or Asgard, closer for some systems - isn't particularly short.)

But a really useful plan for them in Talbott would take no refits to hardware, few or untrained crews (or few AND untrained ones!), and nothing added but pods and software already in Talbott. Making League analysts wonder may be about the most to expect.