Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 66 guests

Grayson v. Haven

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Somtaaw   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:30 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:36 am
Location: Canada

exiledtoIA wrote:Somtaw, ( hope I spelled that right ).
Actually depending on how closely the RMN's Uniform Code of Military Justice follows current US and British versions Honor could be charged and courts-martialed.
There is a catchall Article in most countries UCMJ's about "Conduct Unbecoming".
This is used when somebody does something that doesn't quite fit other specific charges. It can also be used when they want to "pile-on".
Depending on how the ceasefire order was written Honor could possibly charged with violating a legal order from a superior officer.
We never see the text of the ceasefire so it could have forbidden an officer in the RMN from committing any action which could jeopardize the ceasefire.


most of which I accounted for. Also, as far as I understand it, people in today's modern militaries aren't allowed to hold commissions in other nations militaries. So Honor is one of a bare handful that are commissioned in multiple system militaries. That alone puts her into an absolutely tremendous 'gray area'. If she's commanding purely Grayson forces, then she's simply acting in her role as the senior space-faring Admiral in the Grayson Navy. Any orders she receives in her persona as an RMN Admiral simply do not apply, she's not acting as an RMN Admiral, as she's not commanding an RMN force.


And any courts martial, wouldn't be able to actually stick her with 'conduct unbecoming' or 'rejecting a superior officers orders', because she wasn't in that RMN superior officers chain of command. Janacek could have sent blistering orders to stand down until he died of apoplexy, and Honor could have cheerfully told him to "buzz off, I'm a Grayson Admiral commanding a Grayson force"


The only time Honor would get into severe issues, would be any of the Manticoran units in Eighth Fleet that decided to continue following the orders of the Grayson units. Then you get into a truly sticky situation, every ship captain who decided to keep following Grayson's attack orders just committed mutiny. And if Honor were giving them any form of orders, then she has also started acting in a manner that invites punishment.


In terms of attack force, we not only had the minor fact that Grayson was actually the largest contributor to Eighth Fleet, but they also had the Protector's Own, which Honor is also the permanent CO of. So if Grayson had 'withdrawn' from the Manticore Anti-Haven Alliance, and sent the Protector's Own unit forwards to merge with the Grayson units that made up Eighth Fleet. Grayson would have almost exactly as many ships as made up the entirety of Eighth Fleet, and call it the expanded Protector's Own. Being the permenent CO, Honor would be easily within her grounds to follow her liege lord Benjamin's orders to continue assaulting Haven. And Elizabeth as her other liege, would be giving background assent, so the only place orders to stand down would be coming from Janacek and Chakrabarti, which as I've pointed out, have no authority over Grayson units acting in Grayson interests.
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:36 am

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Somtaaw wrote:The only time Honor would get into severe issues, would be any of the Manticoran units in Eighth Fleet that decided to continue following the orders of the Grayson units. Then you get into a truly sticky situation, every ship captain who decided to keep following Grayson's attack orders just committed mutiny. And if Honor were giving them any form of orders, then she has also started acting in a manner that invites punishment.


Would she not have to desert her post as commandant of the "Crusher" and the Saganami Island Academy?

The window of opportunity for Grayson to continue operation Buttercup unilaterally with Honor is command is very, very small. Janacek returned her to Saganami Island because he couldn't afford to beach her and Hamish at the same time. She didn't leave SI until sent to Sidemore/Silesia immediately prior to the second war.

Janacek should gladly accept her resignation, but would probably have blocked it for as long as possible just out of spite, and without that out, he would prosecute her for desertion of her post with great glee and a conviction would have been a slam dunk. I'm sure the charges would include "in time of war" to make desertion a capital offense.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Duckk   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:47 am

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

In terms of attack force, we not only had the minor fact that Grayson was actually the largest contributor to Eighth Fleet, but they also had the Protector's Own, which Honor is also the permanent CO of. So if Grayson had 'withdrawn' from the Manticore Anti-Haven Alliance, and sent the Protector's Own unit forwards to merge with the Grayson units that made up Eighth Fleet. Grayson would have almost exactly as many ships as made up the entirety of Eighth Fleet, and call it the expanded Protector's Own. Being the permenent CO, Honor would be easily within her grounds to follow her liege lord Benjamin's orders to continue assaulting Haven. And Elizabeth as her other liege, would be giving background assent, so the only place orders to stand down would be coming from Janacek and Chakrabarti, which as I've pointed out, have no authority over Grayson units acting in Grayson interests.


The Protector's Own at this point in time didn't have any modern capital ships that were operational. Several SD(P)s were in the process of working up, but were not ready yet. They certainly wouldn't have had the two squadrons of of SD(P)s that they had in WoH.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:02 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8792
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Somtaaw wrote:So Honor is one of a bare handful that are commissioned in multiple system militaries. That alone puts her into an absolutely tremendous 'gray area'. If she's commanding purely Grayson forces, then she's simply acting in her role as the senior space-faring Admiral in the Grayson Navy. Any orders she receives in her persona as an RMN Admiral simply do not apply, she's not acting as an RMN Admiral, as she's not commanding an RMN force.


And any courts martial, wouldn't be able to actually stick her with 'conduct unbecoming' or 'rejecting a superior officers orders', because she wasn't in that RMN superior officers chain of command. Janacek could have sent blistering orders to stand down until he died of apoplexy, and Honor could have cheerfully told him to "buzz off, I'm a Grayson Admiral commanding a Grayson force"

Wasn't Honor's service in the GSN legally secondary to her services in the RMN; since she was loaned out to them (like many RMN officers). Admittely originally she was loaned out while "beached" on half pay; but she was still subject to the RMN Admiralty and only allowed to work with the GSN with their permission (even if that permission is routinely granted). You're correct that a RMN Admiral couldn't send legal orders to RMN Captain Harrington while she was acting in her role as GSN Admiral Harrington. (And unless her GSN unit was assigned to his fleet he couldn't send orders to GSN Admiral Harrington either).

But the Manticoran Admiralty could (I think) send orders at any time recalling her from GSN service and then she'd be back in the RMN chain of command at her lower rank. Similarly it would be (again, I think) perfectly legal for every RMN officer or sailor loaned to the GSN to be ordered out of GSN service effective immediately (which they would do if Grayson attempted to continue the war against the wishes of the Manticoran government). After that any action on the loaned RMN personnel's parts to assist the GSN in its work would be against explicit orders and subject them to RMN courtmartial - no mater what rank or position they had held in the GSN while on loan to it.
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Duckk   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:09 pm

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

I suppose the argument would hinge on a very arcane legal decision: was it Steadholder Harrington who became an admiral in the GSN, or was it then-Countess Harrington? Remember, Steadholder Harrington is legally a distinct person from Duchess Harrington - they just happen to cohabitate in the same physical body.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:44 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Navies can ill afford commissions to, resign or no, effectively do so to join an ally in order to achieve a circumvention of their decision to wage war. How would it have appeared on the surface to the galaxy at large, but simply a smokescreen to enable their most decorated officer to wage war under-cover, had they supported Harrington in the end?

I suspect that any officer choosing to do so, would do so in the interest of the Star Empire as well, but fully expecting to be disavowed.

Manticore could have ill afforded to have previously abandoned political correctness in the face of wanting to splinter the League. They'd only have appeared to be full of just as much malodorous excretions.

I'm afraid that certain members of the Lords would have been dancing on a cloud, delightfully shocked at the prospect of finally having landed in their laps the fire in which to finally burn Harrington. She would fully have been made the toast she'd expect. Burnt!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:30 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Remember the treason cases filed by the Rosevelt Admin against the Americans who joined the RAF in 1940-41.

Oh, right...
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:53 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

kzt wrote:Remember the treason cases filed by the Rosevelt Admin against the Americans who joined the RAF in 1940-41.

Oh, right...

I am not aware of any cases except Americans (civilians) crossing the waters to join the RAF to learn to fly. I don't recall any resigning commissions to do so -- or to circumvent a decision not to wage war.

Would you provide a link?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by Theemile   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:16 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5241
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:Remember the treason cases filed by the Rosevelt Admin against the Americans who joined the RAF in 1940-41.

Oh, right...

I am not aware of any cases except Americans (civilians) crossing the waters to join the RAF to learn to fly. I don't recall any resigning commissions to do so -- or to circumvent a decision not to wage war.

Would you provide a link?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Squadrons
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Grayson v. Haven
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:58 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Duckk wrote:I suppose the argument would hinge on a very arcane legal decision: was it Steadholder Harrington who became an admiral in the GSN, or was it then-Countess Harrington? Remember, Steadholder Harrington is legally a distinct person from Duchess Harrington - they just happen to cohabitate in the same physical body.

I imagine this fact would only serve to save her personas from death, but NOT her RMN career.

There is absolutely no way that Honor would have been put to death. Elizabeth would not have stood for that. If so, it would have been the catalyst for an even bigger political crisis far greater than what that bugger Young ever created. Grayson would have threatened to withdraw from the alliance for certain. I wouldn't be surprised if the treecats suddenly took a political stance. You want political pressure, how's that for ya?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse