Sorry to say

Abortion is legalized murder of an unborn child. If murder is illegal after the birth then why is abortion legal before the birth. At some point, those cells become human life within the womb. People have been charged with 2 deaths when a pregnant woman and the unborn baby are killed! So, the unborn baby counts as a life in this instance. Hmmmm.....I am just a little confused by this conflicting message and double standard. Second, take the politics out of this equation. Make it illegal for PP to donate campaign money while receiving federal funds. I wonder how long PP would continue to operate if they could not donate campaign money. Is this about money for campaigns or true ethical problems?

hanuman wrote:Mmm, maybe instead of abortion we should advocate for enforced castrationof any man who begets a child out of wedlock...sounds like an excellent solution to me. Maybe then conservatives would stop trying to inflict an ever heavier burden upon poor women by trying to defund an organisation that provides vital health care for them - 97% of which has nothing to do with abortion at all, as someone else noted.

I would love to know why conservatives have such hatred in their hearts for the poor, and especially poor women who aren't white. Planned Parenthood does a wonderful job, yet conservatives can apparently only see its truly miniscule involvement in abortion, without any regard for the damage it would cause if their vendetta succeeds.

I do not understand this, Peter. You talk about the awful waste of human potential, with which I agree, yet the movement which you so fervently support is instinctively, violently and relentlessly opposed to anything that might unlock the human potential of the poorest people - such as Obamacare, adequate funding for inner city school districts, or for that matter, increasing the minimum wage. Why is that?

All comes down to the definition of an unborn child. Some say viable after a natural birth, some say viable after a medically assisted birth, then when there is brain activity or heartbeat, but some seem to want to go back to sperm and eggs.

Most abortions are at the stage when the zygote is quite small, so why would anyone object?

yes at some point, but that point is depending on your country somewhere in the second trimester, so whats wrong with removing a zygote prior to this, as it isnt classed as a living being at all? The foetus doesnt clinicaly exist until 9 to 11 weeks in, so for the first 2 months, you should be fine with abortion right, as its not a living being, only a cell mass? (https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=B47OVg25g-QC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=fetal+stage+begins&source=web&ots=dqQjWN-2jU&sig=-KVkuIJggNo1T_gV6AHkcc58xyI&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=fetal%20stage%20begins&f=false, http://americanpregnancy.org/while-pregnant/first-trimester/)


so abortion should be allowed for at least the first 2 months, as there's no murder, acording to medical professionals.
beyond here, depending on how you view viability, things can get complicated. Should we consider the point at which the foetus is able to survive independent of the mother with modern medical science to hold it alive? if so, thats 21 weeks before the foetus has the ability to survive outside the womb/ could be considered a viable person in and of itself? ([url]neoreviews.aappublications.org/cgi/content/extract/4/6/e153[/url])


pain perception occurs later again (26 weeks), so you may not want to base it on ability to feel pain, using this as an indicator of brain function....



Given these factors, I suspect a rational viewpoint would be to set the cutoff point at some point between these factors, as ignoring the murder/not murder question ,and looking only at point of humanisation, it probably occurs at approx the 20 week mark to allow for rapid developmental growth in the faster than average foeti to reach the point at which slow foeti might take 23 to 25 weeks to reach viability. given this, a rational cutoff would probably be 19 weeks and under be acceptable for any and all abortions, with post 19/20 weeks being medically required cases, such as life of mother vs life of foetus decisions.



This is just a scientific look at it, as the murder laws here are different to yours, and it only counts as murder post 26 weeks here, so that may be something for you to consider.....

smr wrote: At some point, those cells become human life within the womb. People have been charged with 2 deaths when a pregnant woman and the unborn baby are killed! So, the unborn baby counts as a life in this instance.

smr wrote:Abortion is legalized murder of an unborn child. If murder is illegal after the birth then why is abortion legal before the birth. At some point, those cells become human life within the womb. People have been charged with 2 deaths when a pregnant woman and the unborn baby are killed! So, the unborn baby counts as a life in this instance.

Not that I expect anything but for you to keep ignoring things that are pointed out to you.... but it was already pointed out that the reason those laws exist in the first place is because anti abortion legislators passed them for the specific purpose of then being able to turn around later and say "See! The law counts it as a life! So no abortion! Aha!"

You can choose to be gullible enough to fall for that or anything else that serves your preferred position, but don't expect the rest of us to be.

Personally 12 weeks. By about 12 weeks something like 25% of pregnancies have spontaniously aborted anyway. (That's miscarried)

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Yeah, thats a valid point, especially with my mum as a midwife having to warn all the ladies to not celebrate and spread the news until at least second semester, as so much can spontaneously go wrong in the first.

Annachie wrote:Personally 12 weeks. By about 12 weeks something like 25% of pregnancies have spontaniously aborted anyway. (That's miscarried)

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Perhaps Chuck Schumer summed up the liberal ethos best when he declared yesterday, "It doesn't matter what anybody said in the past."

Someone said, "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat the past." Unlike politics, reality doesn't change.

The current problem for the USA liberals is that what they want now is opposed to what they said in the past

DDHvi wrote:

Perhaps Chuck Schumer summed up the liberal ethos best when he declared yesterday, "It doesn't matter what anybody said in the past."

Someone said, "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat the past." Unlike politics, reality doesn't change.

The current problem for the USA liberals is that what they want now is opposed to what they said in the past

That's the difference between progressives and liberals. Liberals still adhere to beliefs. Progressives adhere only to the certainty that their beliefs and policies will change with time and circumstances. Their beliefs and policies progress every forward.

DDHvi wrote:Someone said, "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat the past." Unlike politics, reality doesn't change.

The current problem for the USA liberals is that what they want now is opposed to what they said in the past

That was George Santayana, one of the great thinkers of the early 20th century. As a Harvard professor he taught philosophy to Robert Frost, T.S. Eliot, W.E.B. DuBois and Gertrude Stein. According to Warner Brother's Chuck Jones, he was also a big influence on the Road Runner cartoons. How's that for a resume?

smr wrote:My view that abortion should be illegal when they they can survive outside the womb. We have variety of ways to terminate unwanted pregancy early! Second, we do have Birth Control.

Ah, so as usual you haven´t got a clue what you´re talking about then.

Late term abortions beyond where the feetus MAY be able to survive outside the womb makes up for a tiny part of the total, and most of those are due to medical reasons, not choice.

smr wrote:As a result, I believe in putting stipulations on having an abortion. Under 18, a parent's permission should be obtained. View the developing baby on a sonogram or ultrasound and 3 day cooling off period before the procedure can take place. I believe if we assign rights to the baby outside the womb then the fetus (baby) has rights in the womb.

Idiot. I cannot say how disgusting i found your prejudiced and outright stupid opinions.

Are you so lost to reality that you really think abortion is an EASY choice?

Oh yes, getting an ultrasound of a tiny blob that wont even be visible to anyone but an expert is such a useful thing to force people through.