Turning points in the RMN/RHN war

dscott8 wrote:I'm going to suggest the Battle of Hades. Why?

1. It showed up the Pierre/Saint-Just administration as outright liars, with their faked footage of Honor's death and their BS about Ransom's death, plus Amos Parnell's resurrection. I believe this to be the root of the revolution that culminated in Saint-Just's 10mm lobotomy. A revolution that put in power a Havenite government that was capable of making peace.

2. The "return from the dead" made Honor Manticore's Joan of Arc, their warrior goddess (and a Duchess, letting her influence policy at higher levels). Even Jeremy X gloated over how it changed the whole equation. A huge black eye for Haven and a morale boost for the Manty Alliance.

3. The liberated Parnell's visit to Earth triggered off Helen Zilwicki's kidnapping, which resulted in both the eventual Queen Berry I of Torch (without whom Torch might not have made it) and the Cachat-Zilwicki black ops team that exposed the Mesan Alignment. It also got Cathy Montaigne back to the Star Kingdom, where she redirected the Liberal Party.

4. The return of Jesus Ramirez to San Martin after his liberation from Hades led to his Presidency, which led to San Martin petitioning to join the Star Kingdom, which set the precedent for the Star Empire when the Talbott Cluster wanted to join up.

5. The liberated officers of several navies formed the core of the Protector's Own, which turned the tide at Sidemore, with the effects mentioned above, bringing the Andies in on Manticore's side. This also led to the partition of Silesia, ending an ongoing headache for Manticore.

Duckk wrote:As discussed in OBS, the plan wasn't to go after Manticore all that early. They were aiming to pick off the Silesian Confederacy first. The problem was that Basilisk was right in the middle of their invasion path, and they knew Manticore wouldn't let them creep around their northern perimeter. So even if they did capture Basilisk, they weren't going to attack Manticore immediately.

Duckk wrote:How would they possibly know to launch the attack from both termini without advance coordination? Someone at each termini has to know that an attack is going out on X Day, otherwise they wouldn't know to attack in the first place.

Even supposing they did somehow manage that, I don't see how it would work out positively for the Peeps. Even with both termini working for them, they wouldn't be able to get clear of the defenses on the Manticore side. They probably would be able to hurt them, but there's only so much tonnage that can go through in a simultaneous transit. And even that results in locking down the Junction for 17 hours (assuming a maximum tonnage simultaneous transit). You pretty much have to succeed with your first push, otherwise you've given the defenders 17 hours to go on alert and set all sorts of nasty traps.

Speaking of traps, read David's post here about what mines would do to a mass transit:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3107&p=68448

Short version, if Manticore were really worried about a simultaneous transit, they'd just flip the switch on the umpteen million mines covering the Trevor's Star and Basilisk transit lanes and then go back to their business.

Theemile wrote:But If I remember correctly there was the fear from some earlier wargamming about Multiple - multiple mass transits.

In other words, both mass transits go through and eat up a bunch of the mines and chew up the close In forts with energy weapons. 17 hours you do it again, and then on the 3rd or 4th attempt all the mines are depleted and the close in forts are to damaged or diminished in number and enough of the units make it out of the lane to make a difference.

Of course we are talking about throwing away 250-350 BBs and their crews to accomplish this condition where 50 BBs may be able to break out and reduce the rest of the junction defenses (at the cost of the rest of those BBs.) I don't know if anyone would accept that butcher bill on a dice roll.

Theemile wrote:

Duckk wrote:How would they possibly know to launch the attack from both termini without advance coordination? Someone at each termini has to know that an attack is going out on X Day, otherwise they wouldn't know to attack in the first place.

Even supposing they did somehow manage that, I don't see how it would work out positively for the Peeps. Even with both termini working for them, they wouldn't be able to get clear of the defenses on the Manticore side. They probably would be able to hurt them, but there's only so much tonnage that can go through in a simultaneous transit. And even that results in locking down the Junction for 17 hours (assuming a maximum tonnage simultaneous transit). You pretty much have to succeed with your first push, otherwise you've given the defenders 17 hours to go on alert and set all sorts of nasty traps.

Speaking of traps, read David's post here about what mines would do to a mass transit:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3107&p=68448

Short version, if Manticore were really worried about a simultaneous transit, they'd just flip the switch on the umpteen million mines covering the Trevor's Star and Basilisk transit lanes and then go back to their business.

But If I remember correctly there was the fear from some earlier wargamming about Multiple - multiple mass transits.

In other words, both mass transits go through and eat up a bunch of the mines and chew up the close In forts with energy weapons. 17 hours you do it again, and then on the 3rd or 4th attempt all the mines are depleted and the close in forts are to damaged or diminished in number and enough of the units make it out of the lane to make a difference.

Of course we are talking about throwing away 250-350 BBs and their crews to accomplish this condition where 50 BBs may be able to break out and reduce the rest of the junction defenses (at the cost of the rest of those BBs.) I don't know if anyone would accept that butcher bill on a dice roll.

wiki wrote:Soon, the People's Republic of Haven, which has been slowly strangling on its own economic policies for over half a century, has set its eyes on the Star Kingdom. The plan Haven has evolved begins with a swift strike to take Basilisk; whipping the low-tech native aliens into a killing frenzy that would sweep across the planet Medusa in a haze of blood is to provide the interstellar pretext Haven desires to swoop in and take control of the system before Manticore can respond. This would provide the means to invade of Manticore through the two wormhole termini Haven would then possess: Trevor's Star and Basilisk.

Theemile wrote:But If I remember correctly there was the fear from some earlier wargamming about Multiple - multiple mass transits.

In other words, both mass transits go through and eat up a bunch of the mines and chew up the close In forts with energy weapons. 17 hours you do it again, and then on the 3rd or 4th attempt all the mines are depleted and the close in forts are to damaged or diminished in number and enough of the units make it out of the lane to make a difference.

Of course we are talking about throwing away 250-350 BBs and their crews to accomplish this condition where 50 BBs may be able to break out and reduce the rest of the junction defenses (at the cost of the rest of those BBs.) I don't know if anyone would accept that butcher bill on a dice roll.