Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:At one point the GSN was the largest navy in the galaxy? Damn, what was in that freighter convoy of good will that Elizabeth sent? lol

I feel like Rip Van Winkle falling asleep for twenty years and awakening to a new kid on the block.

<snip>

Not largest - most powerful (in some ways). The RMN still had >300 SDs and DNs in it's inventory, while Grayson had <100. By waller # and mass, Grayson had a smaller capital fleet than the SLN, RHN, RMN, and IAN; but Grayson, with a larger # of SD(p)s and MDMs had a far more powerful and dangerous fleet until Haven's building programs churned out enough SD(p)s for Thunderbolt.

Somtaaw wrote:Normally yes, but since the technology in both sides would be equal. It's be like the Iowa trying to fight against another Iowa, one that might have been built only slightly later, and with a few tweaks that give it minor improvements. A little faster pivoting perhaps, a slightly different armor distribution. But in the end, it's still firing the same guns, with the same ammo, and moves at the speed.

Nope. One is firing salvos of 400 missiles per ship and the other is firing salvos of 35 missiles per ship, missiles with massively longer range. Or, if you managed to have pods loaded on the obsolete ships, you can fire salvos of that are a full 25% as large as the podlayers can, at least until you need to dump them to run your point defenses.

So remind me, how did that work out in BoM for the SDs?

kzt wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Normally yes, but since the technology in both sides would be equal. It's be like the Iowa trying to fight against another Iowa, one that might have been built only slightly later, and with a few tweaks that give it minor improvements. A little faster pivoting perhaps, a slightly different armor distribution. But in the end, it's still firing the same guns, with the same ammo, and moves at the speed.

Nope. One is firing salvos of 400 missiles per ship and the other is firing salvos of 35 missiles per ship, missiles with massively longer range. Or, if you managed to have pods loaded on the obsolete ships, you can fire salvos of that are a full 25% as large as the podlayers can, at least until you need to dump them to run your point defenses.

So remind me, how did that work out in BoM for the SDs?

Well, you're using a stacked situation, where the RHN attacked with not only a crushing 2:1 hull advantage, but they had no regular SD's, and Manticore's Home Fleet had mostly regular SD's with few podnoughts. And to address the bolded part, since you seem to be misunderstanding. Grayson and Manticore have identical missiles, so if they suddenly decided in 1905 to fight to the death, how does one side suddenly have a range advantage when both sides are firing identical MDM's? Not only are they firing identical MDM's, they're using identical sets of Ghost Rider, offensively and defensively, they have identical compensators and nodes so both fleets are traveling at the same acceleration, and so on and so forth.

We were debating how Grayson, who had a grand total of all of 200 waller, period. And a grand total of 220 ships below the wall, which includes their 40 BCP. Against Manticore, who could bring 300 of the wall to bear, plus over 1000 ships below the wall. With identical missiles and pods on both sides?

I'm sorry, but in a straight up, my fleet versus your fleet, Grayson even with it's 50% edge in podnoughts isn't going to throw enough missiles to make up for having less than 20% of the screen available to the RMN. Grayson podnoughts would be shot dry just like they were when used in the battle defending Sidemore. Or when Giscard shot 8 podnoughts dry, just trying to kill TWO podnoughts prior to the Battle of Lovat, and the revealing of Apollo. And he only succeeded at killing one of the Invictus ships, Honor's got away.

Somtaaw wrote:Well, you're using a stacked situation, where the RHN attacked with not only a crushing 2:1 hull advantage, but they had no regular SD's, and Manticore's Home Fleet had mostly regular SD's with few podnoughts. And to address the bolded part, since you seem to be misunderstanding. Grayson and Manticore have identical missiles, so if they suddenly decided in 1905 to fight to the death, how does one side suddenly have a range advantage when both sides are firing identical MDM's? Not only are they firing identical MDM's, they're using identical sets of Ghost Rider, offensively and defensively, they have identical compensators and nodes so both fleets are traveling at the same acceleration, and so on and so forth.

We were debating how Grayson, who had a grand total of all of 200 waller, period. And a grand total of 220 ships below the wall, which includes their 40 BCP. Against Manticore, who could bring 300 of the wall to bear, plus over 1000 ships below the wall. With identical missiles and pods on both sides?

I'm sorry, but in a straight up, my fleet versus your fleet, Grayson even with it's 50% edge in podnoughts isn't going to throw enough missiles to make up for having less than 20% of the screen available to the RMN. Grayson podnoughts would be shot dry just like they were when used in the battle defending Sidemore. Or when Giscard shot 8 podnoughts dry, just trying to kill TWO podnoughts prior to the Battle of Lovat, and the revealing of Apollo. And he only succeeded at killing one of the Invictus ships, Honor's got away.

First, 1905 is basically the start of the 1st war; (1st) battle of Hancock was in the spring of '05. So at that point neither the RMN nor the GSN had MDMs, Ghostrider, podnoughts. Heck the RMN had barely yet introduced towed pods.

But assuming a later time, remember that even first gen podlayers carry significantly more missile defense than the final pre-MDM SDs did. And the Invictus ships Giscard shot dry against were another massive upgrade in point defense (thanks to offbore CM fire and Keyhole).

At 50% edge in podnaught might not give you enough missile density and depth of magazine to kill every podnaught on the other side, but its the enemy podnaught that are the real threat; and also the best missile sponges. The normal SDs will can have fired off their towed pods before any of your fire can reach them, and after they they have far less point defense and fire control than either side's SD(P)s. (Plus while they can take and control MDM pods rolled by the SD(P)s their firecontrol isn't as optimized for MDM ranged combat as they were designed around SDM ranges; as that's what their tubes fire [and all that existed when they were designed and built])

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:My bad, I should never have expected a straightforward answer doing election season.

"What do you expect is the most powerful navy sir?"

"Well, it depends on the calculus used -- most ships, most wallers, mass..."

"Well, how about we use the "calculus" itself sir. The area under the curve of the most ships, the most mass, etc... because some of those things don't matter worth a gorilla's ass -- not even an 800lb gorilla's ass."



Stop being a politician Theemile.


Aside:
A recent poll denies that the US continues to house the most powerful military. I failed to catch who has claimed first place.

If you are going to use the calculus of the area under the curve, you also need to consider the ratio of that area under the curve to the area that it must cover.

You can have the biggest tablecloth of anybody, but if your table is even larger, some portions of the table will not be covered at all, or if you stretch the tablecloth out, insufficiently covered, assuming that the tablecloth does not tear giant holes in it while being stretched.

cthia wrote:Printing a Retraction.

Sorry Theemile, it was Vince - the politician.

Printing a retraction of the printed retraction.

Sorry Vince.

I'm going to have to fire some researchers at the Daily Planet.

The thing is, I just never realized that Grayson had become so powerful. Grayson's stats snuck in under the radar - akin to key basketball players coming off the bench and hitting a few key free throws or goals - carrying the team - when the starters are in a slump.

And to think that the (Janacek?) administration had done its dead level best to alienate her. Grayson could have told Manticore to suck hind teat at that point. And might would have had it not been for Honor.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:At one point the GSN was the largest navy in the galaxy? Damn, what was in that freighter convoy of good will that Elizabeth sent? lol

I feel like Rip Van Winkle falling asleep for twenty years and awakening to a new kid on the block.

<snip>

Not largest - most powerful (in some ways). The RMN still had >300 SDs and DNs in it's inventory, while Grayson had <100. By waller # and mass, Grayson had a smaller capital fleet than the SLN, RHN, RMN, and IAN; but Grayson, with a larger # of SD(p)s and MDMs had a far more powerful and dangerous fleet until Haven's building programs churned out enough SD(p)s for Thunderbolt.

Believe it or not, I actually wrote "most powerful" then decided to edit it for some unknown reason. Probably out of my stunned confusion or shock that Grayson could be either.

Can you think of a more pointed example of "the student becomes the master?"

Jonathan_S wrote:First, 1905 is basically the start of the 1st war; (1st) battle of Hancock was in the spring of '05. So at that point neither the RMN nor the GSN had MDMs, Ghostrider, podnoughts. Heck the RMN had barely yet introduced towed pods.

The pearl kzt linked was for 1920 fleet numbers, which included podnought numbers, which I've been referring to. At 1920, Grayson had 50% more podnoughts, but less than 20% of the sub-waller screen. They also had vastly less CLAC's, and I don't believe Katana's had actually been fielded just yet but definitely in development.

In 1905, there isn't any question, Grayson would definitely be weaker/smaller in every way than RMN. And technically at that point in time, the SLN would still be #1, because you're right, the Haven sector wouldn't have their MDM's and advanced pods yet.

1905, most powerful to least powerful (major) fleets, would be:
SLN > RMN & People's Navy more or less tied for 2&3, Grayson Navy for 4th, IAN in 5th.

1920, most powerful to least powerful:
RHN > RMN > GSN > IAN, and the SLN falls in last place, because by 1920 everybody in the Haven sector is just tricked out with MDM's, podnoughts, and war experience over the SLN gimme-sims.

Then by 1921-1922, the RMN introduced Apollo, which bumped the RHN to fourth, and all 3 Allied Fleets get bumped up to 1st through 3rd. But Grayson through the years, almost from the moment of signing as a Manticore ally, moved in lockstep with the RMN strength.

IN 1905 it would likely be SLN, Peeps, Manticoran Alliance, IAN. Basically, without the coup the Manticoran Alliance would have lost the war in the first year or so due to the huge combat power advantage the Peeps had.

It's possible that in 1905 there are SDFs of the SLN that are more capable than the IAN or even the Manticoran Alliance, but the build program would have overcome that in the early teens at the latest.

Most of the Manticoran Alliance combat power in 1905 was the RMN, but that changed over time as the GSN, Talbot and Erehwon built SD squadrons and the smaller allies built lighter combatants.

Somtaaw wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:First, 1905 is basically the start of the 1st war; (1st) battle of Hancock was in the spring of '05. So at that point neither the RMN nor the GSN had MDMs, Ghostrider, podnoughts. Heck the RMN had barely yet introduced towed pods.

The pearl kzt linked was for 1920 fleet numbers, which included podnought numbers, which I've been referring to. At 1920, Grayson had 50% more podnoughts, but less than 20% of the sub-waller screen. They also had vastly less CLAC's, and I don't believe Katana's had actually been fielded just yet but definitely in development.

In 1905, there isn't any question, Grayson would definitely be weaker/smaller in every way than RMN. And technically at that point in time, the SLN would still be #1, because you're right, the Haven sector wouldn't have their MDM's and advanced pods yet.

1905, most powerful to least powerful (major) fleets, would be:
SLN > RMN & People's Navy more or less tied for 2&3, Grayson Navy for 4th, IAN in 5th.

In 1905 the GSN had no wallers in service. House of Steel tells us they didn't get the 5 ex-Peep SDs of the Manticore's Gift class refit and into service until sometime in 1906. At the start of the war they had nothing bigger than a BC in service.

That puts them as substatially weaker than the IAN, and actually weaker than a couple other of Manticore's allies. I believe both Erewhon and the Talbot system (not to be confused with the later Talbott Cluster had already purchased wallers from shipyards in the League prior to the start of the war in 1905. Just from navies/SDFs we know of at the beginning of 1905 Grayson couldn't have ranked higher than 7th or 8th and was probably lower than that. (SLN, Haven, Manticore, IAN, Beowulf, Erewhon, Talbot (probably), Grayson).
Their individual ships were quite good for their class, but they didn't have many of them and didn't have wallers. So they were pretty much automatically weaker than anybody with even a pair of waller divisions (4 wallers).