Frustrations with tactical blinders on the Inner Circle

Silverwall wrote:Thinking strategically there is also the fact that the most effective church commanders are those that are most willing to evade if not openly defy church orders. In the big picture generals who do thier own thinking rather than just follow orders from Zion are critical to promoting critical thinking and undermining the writt so you have to balance thier effectiveness at a tactical level with thier value at the strategic one.

This bears emphasis - it's much like the situation with the tech wizards. For that matter, clever clerks who are willing and able to make exceptional logistics work outside established traditions and perhaps (somehow) in defiance of the Church's expectations and preferences would be in the same category of grand strategical allies who are operational pains-in-the-tush.

It's no defense for the commanders who are innovative and effective in ways that represent still full obedience to the Church and its ways of doing things, and it may be a defense for the inspiring innovators who are nevertheless not that effective. (But then, that lot does not need an exemption from Allied assassination: they're win-win already.)

An overarching problem with assassination on the Allied side, or the Inner Circle one at least, is that, as the rebels against God's own Church here, they carry a burden of suspicion and distrust. That's going to get vastly worse with the Reveal, both with the painful rejection of the Writ and Safehold's identity and with the revelation that the IC has been deceptive about its ultimate ends and hiding what it knew. They need to rack up a whole lot of moral capital to get through that, and doing anything that people will regard as wrong along the way is very expensive that way.

So they have to consider the perception of assassination. Not snipping out the leader whose single death will save tens of thousands is a pretty clear moral mistake to us, and may be that to Safeholders in the event. But if it isn't - or if the situation is not that beautifully clear hypothetical - then saving those tens of thousands by snipping the one may mean losing the whole struggle because people don't trust you and millions will be lost in vain.

The argument could work the other way around - they could, theoretically, lose that moral capital not assassinating the perfect target. Zhaspyr Clyntahn is a very good candidate for that position. So it's not a blanket condemnation of assassination for Charis, and they're already sniping the worst of the Inquisition elsewhere precisely as their part to reducing the genocide the Church is conducting. But it does mean that you need to look a lot further than who will replace this leader if you kill him, and when you do, assassinations are likely to look worse more often than they look better.

JeffEngel wrote:

Silverwall wrote:Thinking strategically there is also the fact that the most effective church commanders are those that are most willing to evade if not openly defy church orders. In the big picture generals who do thier own thinking rather than just follow orders from Zion are critical to promoting critical thinking and undermining the writt so you have to balance thier effectiveness at a tactical level with thier value at the strategic one.

This bears emphasis - it's much like the situation with the tech wizards. For that matter, clever clerks who are willing and able to make exceptional logistics work outside established traditions and perhaps (somehow) in defiance of the Church's expectations and preferences would be in the same category of grand strategical allies who are operational pains-in-the-tush.

It's no defense for the commanders who are innovative and effective in ways that represent still full obedience to the Church and its ways of doing things, and it may be a defense for the inspiring innovators who are nevertheless not that effective. (But then, that lot does not need an exemption from Allied assassination: they're win-win already.)

An overarching problem with assassination on the Allied side, or the Inner Circle one at least, is that, as the rebels against God's own Church here, they carry a burden of suspicion and distrust. That's going to get vastly worse with the Reveal, both with the painful rejection of the Writ and Safehold's identity and with the revelation that the IC has been deceptive about its ultimate ends and hiding what it knew. They need to rack up a whole lot of moral capital to get through that, and doing anything that people will regard as wrong along the way is very expensive that way.

So they have to consider the perception of assassination. Not snipping out the leader whose single death will save tens of thousands is a pretty clear moral mistake to us, and may be that to Safeholders in the event. But if it isn't - or if the situation is not that beautifully clear hypothetical - then saving those tens of thousands by snipping the one may mean losing the whole struggle because people don't trust you and millions will be lost in vain.

The argument could work the other way around - they could, theoretically, lose that moral capital not assassinating the perfect target. Zhaspyr Clyntahn is a very good candidate for that position. So it's not a blanket condemnation of assassination for Charis, and they're already sniping the worst of the Inquisition elsewhere precisely as their part to reducing the genocide the Church is conducting. But it does mean that you need to look a lot further than who will replace this leader if you kill him, and when you do, assassinations are likely to look worse more often than they look better.

Your argument rests on an issue that is up to the author, namely whether on Safehold assassination is viewed as dubious, or as a normal means of diplomacy. Certainly if we look at this world it is in many though not all circles viewed as a normal means of resolving disputes. We happen to use drones rather than --- part of the time -- crossbows, but that;s simply the instrumentality.

phillies wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:So they have to consider the perception of assassination. Not snipping out the leader whose single death will save tens of thousands is a pretty clear moral mistake to us, and may be that to Safeholders in the event. But if it isn't - or if the situation is not that beautifully clear hypothetical - then saving those tens of thousands by snipping the one may mean losing the whole struggle because people don't trust you and millions will be lost in vain.

The argument could work the other way around - they could, theoretically, lose that moral capital not assassinating the perfect target. Zhaspyr Clyntahn is a very good candidate for that position. So it's not a blanket condemnation of assassination for Charis, and they're already sniping the worst of the Inquisition elsewhere precisely as their part to reducing the genocide the Church is conducting. But it does mean that you need to look a lot further than who will replace this leader if you kill him, and when you do, assassinations are likely to look worse more often than they look better.

Your argument rests on an issue that is up to the author, namely whether on Safehold assassination is viewed as dubious, or as a normal means of diplomacy. Certainly if we look at this world it is in many though not all circles viewed as a normal means of resolving disputes. We happen to use drones rather than --- part of the time -- crossbows, but that;s simply the instrumentality.

It certainly does rest on that, yes.

Nahrmahn's reputation for assassination, and that Clyntahn thought he could smear Cayleb with it in Hektor's case, do suggest that it carries significant disapproval on Safehold.

Heck, that Safehold has traditions of heroic combat still almost guarantees that assassination will be condemned as cowardly.

Furthermore, most political power on Safehold is bound up with hereditary monarchs, and where the actual power is spread out a bit, the symbolic role is still important. That's an environment where grinding up thousands of peasants will be taken as business as usual - even by the peasants - but killing specific, important leaders will be anathema. That's an attitude the Inner Circle is committed to changing anyway, but it's one they've got in the world as it is.

mscase wrote:

So, am I the only one who thinks that the whole "the ONLY way to win this war is to build up the Charisian industrial base and pretend we don't have any access to advanced technology (other than communications)" schtick has gotten a bit out of hand?

Steel sharpens steel. Merlin's goal isn't to defeat the Church of God Awaiting; his goal is to defeat the Gbaba. It's possible that Safehold's descendants could defeat the Gbaba using existing Federation technology, but it would be better to approach them with more advanced technology. The only ones who can develop advanced technology are Safehold's descendants, so Merlin needs them able to do so. They can't do so if every battle has been a cake walk. They need real challenges now if they're to face real challenges in the future. Merlin's not so much throwing off the yoke of the Church and its belief system, as he is forging the weapons needed in the next war.

~Tonto

thanatos wrote:

mscase wrote:


Finally, the Proscriptions have not eroded - Not at least in the eyes of most Safeholdians. They all still operate on the belief that they would need to justify any innovation to the local intendant, with most simply giving up in advance rather than risk it. Indeed, RFC has commented on this very subject. While Clyntahn is approving innovations left, right and center, he is only doing so as an expedient for the war effort, using his specific authority to do while withdrawing that authority from any Schuelerites who are behind enemy lines (if any are left of course). Legally speaking, he isn't violating the proscriptions until and unless he starts working with electricity (something even he isn't stupid enough to risk). Obviously he believes that when he wins, he will be able to stuff that genie back in the bottle by eliminating all of the innovators and anathematizing their work and inventions. And I would remind you that many clergymen were already uncomfortable with all the innovation being approved by the church, even if it was completely legal and absolutely necessary for survival. They all still fear the Rakurai will come crashing down for their "sins". No, the Proscriptions will only be degraded if people no longer fear the church punishing them for their creativity or if they start twisting the rule to accommodate electricity.

But how is electricity going to help the war effort? The first uses of electricity were electroplating figures in bronze age times. Radios and telegraphs would help the war efforts for the COGA but hey would have to invent the telegraph/radio from scrap, manufacture wires, run wires, build towers, develop morse code, make new code books, train operators all from a group of people scared to try playing around with chemistry o learn the basics to come up with the rules and laws to abided by to keep electricity from hurnting people in ways to prove the proscriptions right....
IMHO I see Thirsk getting spoon fed info on electricity and how to make it "weaponized" AKA telegraph/radio to help the COGA and get Clyntan to embrace the new advantage and to see what else Thirsk can come up with. I don't see a flash light being the first thing that helps the war effort, and that would take time to develop a reliable light bulb, let alone a reliable battery [yes I know stack two different types of metals with a thin layer of cloth soaked in acid repeat and get a battery]

mhicks wrote:
But how is electricity going to help the war effort? The first uses of electricity were electroplating figures in bronze age times. Radios and telegraphs would help the war efforts for the COGA but hey would have to invent the telegraph/radio from scrap, manufacture wires, run wires, build towers, develop morse code, make new code books, train operators all from a group of people scared to try playing around with chemistry o learn the basics to come up with the rules and laws to abided by to keep electricity from hurnting people in ways to prove the proscriptions right....
IMHO I see Thirsk getting spoon fed info on electricity and how to make it "weaponized" AKA telegraph/radio to help the COGA and get Clyntan to embrace the new advantage and to see what else Thirsk can come up with. I don't see a flash light being the first thing that helps the war effort, and that would take time to develop a reliable light bulb, let alone a reliable battery [yes I know stack two different types of metals with a thin layer of cloth soaked in acid repeat and get a battery]

Politically electricity is not practical until the proscriptions are discredited and abandoned.

Also electricity would be dangerous until there is a way to deal with the OBS.

Don

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:mscase wrote:

So, am I the only one who thinks that the whole "the ONLY way to win this war is to build up the Charisian industrial base and pretend we don't have any access to advanced technology (other than communications)" schtick has gotten a bit out of hand?

Steel sharpens steel. Merlin's goal isn't to defeat the Church of God Awaiting; his goal is to defeat the Gbaba. It's possible that Safehold's descendants could defeat the Gbaba using existing Federation technology, but it would be better to defeat them using more advanced technology. The only ones who can develop advanced technology are Safehold's descendants, so Merlin needs a people able to do so. They can't do so if every battle has been a cake walk. They need real challenges now if they're to face real challenges in the future. Merlin's not so much throwing off the yolk of the Church and its belief system, as he is forging the weapons needed in the next war.

~Tonto

Just so. Merlin is in the position of the Arisians. They were careful to allow the lesser beings to develop their own strength.

Expert snuggler wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:mscase wrote:

So, am I the only one who thinks that the whole "the ONLY way to win this war is to build up the Charisian industrial base and pretend we don't have any access to advanced technology (other than communications)" schtick has gotten a bit out of hand?

Steel sharpens steel. Merlin's goal isn't to defeat the Church of God Awaiting; his goal is to defeat the Gbaba. It's possible that Safehold's descendants could defeat the Gbaba using existing Federation technology, but it would be better to defeat them using more advanced technology. The only ones who can develop advanced technology are Safehold's descendants, so Merlin needs a people able to do so. They can't do so if every battle has been a cake walk. They need real challenges now if they're to face real challenges in the future. Merlin's not so much throwing off the yolk of the Church and its belief system, as he is forging the weapons needed in the next war.

~Tonto

Just so. Merlin is in the position of the Arisians. They were careful to allow the lesser beings to develop their own strength.

I love that Doc Smith's Lensmen series was referenced. I can still picture the bookstore in downtown Salina, KS where I purchased my first paperback edition of Galactic Patrol sometime around 1967. (Third book in the series but my first introduction to Doc Smith.) That series is real space opera. (Not that I want to detract from what RFC/MWW does as my current favorite provider of addicting words.)

Let's not forget the assassination that really blew up in the CoGA's face - Prince Nahrmahn!

They traded an extremely competent ruler for a Virtual Person who can run in hyper-heuristic mode inside of a computer. He's several magnitudes more efficient as the EoC's chief intelligence analyst now than he was while he was alive!

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops!"

To give the devil (Clyntahn) his due, as far as he knows he actually killed one of his most dangerous adversaries and left Nahrmahn's teenage son in charge, with his mother as regent. Worst case, Emerald becomes even more of a vassal state to Charis, but as part of the EoC that was already happening, and the message "The Inquisition can and will stomp out heresy everywhere" is delivered with an iron fist.

He obviously misunderstood the effects of the Rakurai attacks in uniting public opinion against the CoGA, especially when he tried to murder Irys and Hektor on the steps of the cathedral after their wedding. That lost him any support he had among the common people in Corisande, and changed it from a conquered state that had to be occupied by tens of thousands of EoC troops into a voluntary member of the EoC with a serious ax to grind! (And thousands of volunteers signing up to join the EoC military!)

Once again, "Oops!"

The CoGA has developed a reputation for assassinating enemy leaders and not caring about collateral damage. The EoC has the reputation of acting honorably and following the rules of war, even though the Inquisition considers it their duty to put captured enemy soldiers through the entire Punishment of Schueler!

The EoC has the clear moral high ground, as do the seijins who eliminate those members of the Inquisition and the military who particularly distinguish themselves in "eliminating heresy." The soldiers and civilians who see the ghastly acts of the Inquisition - or in the case of those in the camps who are victims of it, will become thousands of witnesses who will testify and spread the truth of the corruption of the CoGA, and the unspeakable cruelty of the Inquisition in particular.

Rounding up thousands of merely suspected "heretics" and starving, freezing, and working them to death in prison camps clearly violates the Writ, as various soldiers and clergy point out in HFQ. Sadly, most of them keep their reservations to themselves. They won't remain silent forever...

It's imperative that the Inner Circle and the EoC maintain the high ground, so that when the war ultimately ends, there's no dispute over who acted honorably and who didn't. The CoGA will be hugely discredited by the blood of the tens of thousands of innocents that stain its hands.

McGuiness wrote:Let's not forget the assassination that really blew up in the CoGA's face - Prince Nahrmahn!

They traded an extremely competent ruler for a Virtual Person who can run in hyper-heuristic mode inside of a computer. He's several magnitudes more efficient as the EoC's chief intelligence analyst now than he was while he was alive!

To quote Shannon Foraker, "Oops!"

To give the devil (Clyntahn) his due, as far as he knows he actually killed one of his most dangerous adversaries and left Nahrmahn's teenage son in charge, with his mother as regent. Worst case, Emerald becomes even more of a vassal state to Charis, but as part of the EoC that was already happening, and the message "The Inquisition can and will stomp out heresy everywhere" is delivered with an iron fist.

He obviously misunderstood the effects of the Rakurai attacks in uniting public opinion against the CoGA, especially when he tried to murder Irys and Hektor on the steps of the cathedral after their wedding. That lost him any support he had among the common people in Corisande, and changed it from a conquered state that had to be occupied by tens of thousands of EoC troops into a voluntary member of the EoC with a serious ax to grind! (And thousands of volunteers signing up to join the EoC military!)

Once again, "Oops!"

The CoGA has developed a reputation for assassinating enemy leaders and not caring about collateral damage. The EoC has the reputation of acting honorably and following the rules of war, even though the Inquisition considers it their duty to put captured enemy soldiers through the entire Punishment of Schueler!

The EoC has the clear moral high ground, as do the seijins who eliminate those members of the Inquisition and the military who particularly distinguish themselves in "eliminating heresy." The soldiers and civilians who see the ghastly acts of the Inquisition - or in the case of those in the camps who are victims of it, will become thousands of witnesses who will testify and spread the truth of the corruption of the CoGA, and the unspeakable cruelty of the Inquisition in particular.

Rounding up thousands of merely suspected "heretics" and starving, freezing, and working them to death in prison camps clearly violates the Writ, as various soldiers and clergy point out in HFQ. Sadly, most of them keep their reservations to themselves. They won't remain silent forever...

It's imperative that the Inner Circle and the EoC maintain the high ground, so that when the war ultimately ends, there's no dispute over who acted honorably and who didn't. The CoGA will be hugely discredited by the blood of the tens of thousands of innocents that stain its hands.

In BSRA, Nahrmahn comments on this very point. Unlike the Church and it's leaders, he realized the implications of the recent attack on Charis and what it's failure meant going forward. He understood, from the perspective of someone in a position of authority, that the loss of the Church's moral authority would be a fatal blow to the Church's overall authority. In attempting to destroy Charis through proxies, the Church proved that no throne is safe and that any ruler on Safehold had to fear the Church's wrath if he strayed from the dictates of it's leaders.

Ultimately, rulers can only govern with the consent of the governed and the Church's rule up until OAR was based upon the moral authority that was supposedly handed down by God and the "Archangels". The option of using of force, military, political, diplomatic or economic was always there, but it took second place to the natural trust people placed in the Church and it's servants. Yet once they sought to eliminate Charis, without using the usual legal avenues available to them, once it went beyond interference in Haarahld's rule (see the Hanth succession) and was clearly viewed as an attack upon Charis itself and its people rather than the usual political maneuvers at the top, it eliminated that moral authority.

Had the Church stopped then, had the Vicarite sought to remove the Go4 from power and issue formal apologies to Charis and given it certain, purely local political concessions (such as installing the rightful heir to the Earldom of Hanth), they could have restored faith in the Church and made Merlin's job a lot harder. Instead, they escalated the conflict and have continued to do so at nearly every turn (with the exception of the Ferayd Tribunal). As such, Charis maintaining the moral high ground is important in the long run. People within and without Charis, many of whom began as staunch Temple Loyalists, would at some point have first hand experiences from both the Church and the "heretics" and would eventually reach the conclusion that Charis might just have a point. At worse, they remain neutral and at best you acquire converts.