Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

Mil-tech bard wrote:

n7axw wrote:The real issue here is how limited of a supply of dragons and unicorns has left at this point in the story. IIRC, he only has about 20 battle dragons of all types left after Ft. Salby. If he attacks with those, to be sure, he is going to do some damage. But he will also start using them up and the Sharonians will become more experienced in dealing with them after each attack. The same holds true for the unicorns. He lost a quite a few of them in the attack on the fort, and although I don't have a figure for how many are left, for Harshu now that he is cut off, they are not a renewable resourse. And if he tries to get transports past the portals, he is going to use those up pretty fast as well.

I just don't see how he can get more than a tiny percentage of his people past the swamp portal no matter what he does.

Don-

Don,

The Arcanian heavy horse is what got shot to pieces in Hell's Gate.

Arcanian Unicorns have not been casualties, save for those lost to the mutineers.

How badly Unicorns are going to get shot up is a different matter.

Harshu is going to razzle dazzle as hard as he can to get through the gates with as low a number of casualties as he can, but he does know he will take them.

Aerial recon before the engagement and night assaults/movements during them are his best and only options.

He may be no Rommel, but I suspect he will play some of Rommel's North African fake retreat games with heavy horse/infantry pulling pursuing Bisons onto hidden/camouflaged Arcanian field pieces before it is over.

He can razzle dazzle all he likes. He is still not going to get those transports past the portals in the teeth of heavily concentrated artillery. His resourses are limited and diminishing. I stand corrected on the loss of unicorns at Ft Salby, but they are still a finite resourse with each one lost one that is gone that he cannot replace. In addition to that the accumulators for his spells is weakening and cannot be renewed.

It has been said that amateurs study tactics while professionals study logistics. It will be logistics that does Harshu in in the end.

Actually, the WW2 situation in North Africa is not a bad analogy. You do remember what happened to the Afrika Corps in Tunisia in the end, don't you?

Don

-

As regards a Distance Viewer seeing through a glamour:

I must first note that Five Hundred Gyras Urlan could apparently see his own troops just fine, even with the glamour active. If that is the case a glamour may only stop youfrom seeing into it, and doesn't stop you from seeing when you are already inside of it. Chan Forcal may have just got his View point inside of the glamour were nothing was hidden from him. This is just my theory behind his ability to see through the glamour; although it explains his trouble doing so at first.

This might mean that a plotter may not even face interference from a glamour; then again it might not. If the plotter can see through a glamour then Harshu will struggle to get more than a tiny fraction of his force through Hell's Gate.

Regarding Harshu's limited transport capacity he can still outrun a Sharonan mechanized force. If he can get a third of his force on the existing transport capacity, then he can move his entire force approximately five hundred miles a dar (dragons are good for fifteen hundred). A Sharonian force with full Bison support is not going to get much more than two hundred fifty. As long as Harshu has a full day before the bisons reach artillery range then he can stay ahead of the Sharonians as long as his supplies and dragons hold out.

The only wat Harshu gets a large portion of his force back into Mahritha is if the glamours work perfectly, and he has enough accumulators to power them. I suspect neither one will be true, and he will have to try distraction and subterfuge. With the limited intelligence on Shoranian talents any razzle dazzle is likely to be of limited use.

Astelon wrote:As regards a Distance Viewer seeing through a glamour:

I must first note that Five Hundred Gyras Urlan could apparently see his own troops just fine, even with the glamour active. If that is the case a glamour may only stop youfrom seeing into it, and doesn't stop you from seeing when you are already inside of it. Chan Forcal may have just got his View point inside of the glamour were nothing was hidden from him. This is just my theory behind his ability to see through the glamour; although it explains his trouble doing so at first.

This might mean that a plotter may not even face interference from a glamour; then again it might not. If the plotter can see through a glamour then Harshu will struggle to get more than a tiny fraction of his force through Hell's Gate.

Regarding Harshu's limited transport capacity he can still outrun a Sharonan mechanized force. If he can get a third of his force on the existing transport capacity, then he can move his entire force approximately five hundred miles a dar (dragons are good for fifteen hundred). A Sharonian force with full Bison support is not going to get much more than two hundred fifty. As long as Harshu has a full day before the bisons reach artillery range then he can stay ahead of the Sharonians as long as his supplies and dragons hold out.

The only wat Harshu gets a large portion of his force back into Mahritha is if the glamours work perfectly, and he has enough accumulators to power them. I suspect neither one will be true, and he will have to try distraction and subterfuge. With the limited intelligence on Shoranian talents any razzle dazzle is likely to be of limited use.

The availability of accumulators was already so low that they are no longer available to provide the dragons the lift assist they need to carry heavier loads, restricting them to about 15 tons as opposed to the 25 tons they would normally carry with the lift assist.

Presuming that the rest of Arcanan magic depends on being powered by the accumulators, it seems reasonable to say that Harshu is in trouble all around.

Don

-

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Many posts here have discussed whether Sharona's armies should
stop at the Swamp Portal and fortify it, instead of advancing
into Mairytha/Gharys and on into other Arcanan worlds.
The disadvantages of stopping there and waiting, as opposed to
the difficulties of advancing thru a huge swamp, are shown.

Another consideration is,
what territories are defended at that Swamp Portal?
Answer:
All of Hell's Gate World, **and**
all five (5) of the other Portals leading out of it!

I Seem To Recall that capturing those other five Portals,
and the Chains leading from them,
was one of the reasons that Arcana attacked Hell's Gate,
after they dismissed the idea that the Sharonans might
share those Portals.
Mul Gurthak's written instructions, so ambiguous otherwise,
did specify that Hell's Gate be seized and held.

If Sharona can hold HG, then those Portal Chains come with it.
Is that a reason for Sharona to put a Major Fort there?

And then there are the resources need to explore those Chains.
Arcana had not allotted any to investigate them,
even though their dragons would have made glancing into each
of them, at least, easy.
It will be more difficult and time-consuming for flightless
Sharona to send horsemen or machines to those Gates,
but it obviously ought to be done.
It will take so long for a serious Arcanan army to reach that
swamp, that Sharona will have some months to explore.

Sharona can send resources to explore five new Portals,
or they can try to explore a dragon-defended swamp.

How will Weber and Presby write the story?

Howard T. Map-addict

I wrote often in favor of Sharona advancing, but I understood the alternative to be never advancing, not waiting a few months and then moving forward.

I don't think it possible for Sharona to advance into Mahritha at this time. Chan Geraith's supply situation at the end of Road to Hell has to be as bad as Harshu's was at the beginning. I'll be very surprised if he can do much more then send a company or two in canoes into Mahritha to scout and fortify Hell's Gate. But unless Harshu manages to prevent the railroad from coming up in a few months Sharonan forces will be resupplied.

At that point, I think Sharona's supply line will be adequate to permit them to invade Mahritha in force, and scout the other universes outbound from Hell's Gate, and fortify Hell's Gate, and start building up manufacturing capacity in the area. (I haven't forgotten that the Hell's Gate cluster is right on top of one of the richest iron deposits on the planet.)

Since Arcana doesn't seem to have started building up their supply lines to the front yet while Sharona's supply capacity is now beginning to grow exponentially I suspect Arcana is now so far behind that it will take them 10 years before they are able to catch up. I think that is the good stopping point that David has planned for the end of book four. The domestic politics stable and Sharona kicking off an advance that we know will move forward steadily for many years.

Nicholas

It's my understanding that the Hell's gate portal is the one entering the Hell's Gate universe from New Uromath on the Sharonian side. That particular portal is huge and not particularly defensible. The Swamp portal, on the other hand, leads into Mahritha on the Arcanan side. The Swamp Portal is small and can be fortified.

I hope I got that straight.

Unless Harshu can either retake or break past Ft. Brithik, he's not going to be able to interfere with Chan Geraith's supply lines. I don't see him as able to do that, at least not in any numbers that would amount to more than a trickle.

As I understand it, unlike Harshu, Chan Geraith has a virtual explosion of men and supplies coming up behind him to reinforce his forward positions. That means his situation is much different than Harshu's ever was.

Don

-

That is why I usually reference the portal by both universes involved. If only one universe is named then I assume it is the portal into that universe, from the position the character who mentions it.

n7axw wrote:The availability of accumulators was already so low that they are no longer available to provide the dragons the lift assist they need to carry heavier loads, restricting them to about 15 tons as opposed to the 25 tons they would normally carry with the lift assist.

Presuming that the rest of Arcanan magic depends on being powered by the accumulators, it seems reasonable to say that Harshu is in trouble all around.

I was working under the opinion that different spells required different accumulators. I believe that was mentioned somewhere, but can't currently find it. Although they might have been referring to infantry dragons only, I don't think the statement was entirely clear on that point.

Astelon wrote:That is why I usually reference the portal by both universes involved. If only one universe is named then I assume it is the portal into that universe, from the position the character who mentions it.

n7axw wrote:The availability of accumulators was already so low that they are no longer available to provide the dragons the lift assist they need to carry heavier loads, restricting them to about 15 tons as opposed to the 25 tons they would normally carry with the lift assist.

Presuming that the rest of Arcanan magic depends on being powered by the accumulators, it seems reasonable to say that Harshu is in trouble all around.

I was working under the opinion that different spells required different accumulators. I believe that was mentioned somewhere, but can't currently find it. Although they might have been referring to infantry dragons only, I don't think the statement was entirely clear on that point.

It would make sense for different spells to require different
accumulators. I'm wondering about the spell that was used to "hide" that heavy calvary attack on Salby. It has been suggested that the same spell could be used to hide dragons. But if so, we don't see any attempt to do so by Harshu's recon efforts down the gap into Traisum where it would really make sense.

Don

-

brnicholas wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Many posts here have discussed whether Sharona's armies should
stop at the Swamp Portal and fortify it, instead of advancing
into Mairytha/Gharys and on into other Arcanan worlds.
The disadvantages of stopping there and waiting, as opposed to
the difficulties of advancing thru a huge swamp, are shown.

Another consideration is,
what territories are defended at that Swamp Portal?
Answer:
All of Hell's Gate World, **and**
all five (5) of the other Portals leading out of it!

I Seem To Recall that capturing those other five Portals,
and the Chains leading from them,
was one of the reasons that Arcana attacked Hell's Gate,
after they dismissed the idea that the Sharonans might
share those Portals.
Mul Gurthak's written instructions, so ambiguous otherwise,
did specify that Hell's Gate be seized and held.

If Sharona can hold HG, then those Portal Chains come with it.
Is that a reason for Sharona to put a Major Fort there?

And then there are the resources need to explore those Chains.
Arcana had not allotted any to investigate them,
even though their dragons would have made glancing into each
of them, at least, easy.
It will be more difficult and time-consuming for flightless
Sharona to send horsemen or machines to those Gates,
but it obviously ought to be done.
It will take so long for a serious Arcanan army to reach that
swamp, that Sharona will have some months to explore.

Sharona can send resources to explore five new Portals,
or they can try to explore a dragon-defended swamp.

How will Weber and Presby write the story?

Howard T. Map-addict

I wrote often in favor of Sharona advancing, but I understood the alternative to be never advancing, not waiting a few months and then moving forward.

I don't think it possible for Sharona to advance into Mahritha at this time. Chan Geraith's supply situation at the end of Road to Hell has to be as bad as Harshu's was at the beginning. I'll be very surprised if he can do much more then send a company or two in canoes into Mahritha to scout and fortify Hell's Gate. But unless Harshu manages to prevent the railroad from coming up in a few months Sharonan forces will be resupplied.

At that point, I think Sharona's supply line will be adequate to permit them to invade Mahritha in force, and scout the other universes outbound from Hell's Gate, and fortify Hell's Gate, and start building up manufacturing capacity in the area. (I haven't forgotten that the Hell's Gate cluster is right on top of one of the richest iron deposits on the planet.)

Since Arcana doesn't seem to have started building up their supply lines to the front yet while Sharona's supply capacity is now beginning to grow exponentially I suspect Arcana is now so far behind that it will take them 10 years before they are able to catch up. I think that is the good stopping point that David has planned for the end of book four. The domestic politics stable and Sharona kicking off an advance that we know will move forward steadily for many years.

Nicholas

I think that Sharona will find it very difficult to invade Mahritha as it is a swamp and thus quite difficult to move to a portal whose location you are not aware of. I believe that portal hounds' range is fairly limited so that will contribute to the difficulty.

I am also quite certain that it will be very difficult to build a railroad at the same rate that they are managing on solid ground.

The swamp around the Mahritha-Hell's Gate portal does present some unique challenges for any Sharonian advance. The swamp itself with slow them down, and it presents Arcana with chances to use their superior mobility to its fullest extant. It will be more difficult to build and maintain roads, or any other infrastructure for that matter.

Depending on the portal's exact location there may very well be things that make it easier. The portal appears to be inside the Amazon River Basin somewhere. It is possible that a railroad could be built to a suitable location along the river or one of its tributaries. This would allow Sharona to establish a functional port, without even reaching the coast. (Large ships can get up the Amazon quite a ways.)

Once a port is running things become much easier for Sharona. They can begin shipping in parts for ship construction, and then make their way to the next portal (thanks to Darcel they know its direction). This could provide us with naval battles much earlier than some seem to expect.

For those commenting on the name of the Gates. If you were responding to me, in my prior post all references to Hell's Gate were intended as references to the Universe named Hell's Gate not to any particular gate.

As regards the comments about navigating the swamp. If you look into historical records on steamboats you will find that they need only a few feet of water. If Sharona can't dredge a canal deep enough for steamboats to a channel that leads to the sea in pretty short order I will be surprised.

Nicholas