Hydro-electric Power

Castenea wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:Even skipping the electric part, a large dam with turbines powering a hydraulic distribution system could supply dramatically more power than a bunch of water wheels.

The industry using that power would have to be right nearby of course.

Actually no, you would be better using shafts and belts, unless you needed the power in a way that was mobile (beyond moving along a shaft). For real life example of the power loss involved in hydraulic power transmission versus belt drive, stump grinders tend to get engines about 50 HP greater on hydraulic cutter powered models versus the belt driven models.

Hydraulic power was quite common until the 1920's. Like electricity, losses relate to flow rate. The lower the velocity in the pipe the lower the losses. The down side of this is you need big pipes (and somewhere to put the waste water). Electricity is cheaper because the pipes are smaller... (but you can make a hydraulic power system out of wood so pluses and minuses on both). For an emergent technological power water has distinct advantages so long as you don't want to move power up hill - which is where mechanical drive shafts come in (but are limited to round 5km)(yes, drive shafts 5km long have been used (mostly for pumping water..but that's mining for you)).

DDHvi wrote:SNIP
BTW, one mine got very high efficiency in compression: they had a waterfall nearby, ran a froth of water and air downhill through pipes, and got nearly isothermal compression with liquid and gas separated at the bottom. There was no charge for compression energy either

DDHvi wrote:

EdThomas wrote: So they got streams of compressed air and the water would have the same pressure as any water falling that distance? Do they have to do anything special to separate (capture?) the air?

A retired Geography major who uses Google a lot when browsing here

This was read decades back, part of an engineering course encouraging outside-the-box thinking. IIRC, the mixed stream went into a cavern, and the water could be drained out of the bottom of the mine. Of course, this implies the mine was up a hill or something.

Assume: a deep salt dome, made by solution mining. Run a brine/air froth down a pipe into the center of it. Have a low bottom end return pipe for the brine, and a high bottom end pipe return pipe for the air. You would need to supply some pressure at the top to cause the brine to return, given the density difference between the froth and pure brine. Most of the compression would be done by the brine - at almost isothermal efficiency. You would need to supply extra volume at a relatively low pressure, but would be trading that for extra output pressure. Voila, a very large compressed air energy storage

I remember reading about this concept in a Marmaduke Surfaceblow's story (originally from POWER magazine) based on a real life example.

See also trompe. And from that article you might have been thinking of the Ragged Chute facility in New Liskeard, Ontario. Which used a 351 ft drop to generate the pressure be find their air. (Which may well have also been the inspiration for the tale; all I remember at this late date was the real world example was in Canada)

niethil wrote:There is textev by Makhlyn that some mathematical operations are proscribed. When he was studying the first Owl batch, he said he was finally able to understand what those proscriptions referred to.

I didn't get the impression that they where prescribed, merely that the way that they where described was hard to reconcile with roman numerals. (Probably because the Writ was written by people used to arabic numerals, and then converted after they'd written it.)

PalmerSperry wrote:...they where prescribed, ...

Please, people, look up the definition of Proscribed and Prescribed. The Writ actually does both, but some forms of mathematics were forbidden i.e Proscribed.

(Pasquale's book Prescribes things like the construction and care of fresh-water tanks on ships, while Proscribing things like lead plumbing for drinking water.)

Weird Harold wrote:

PalmerSperry wrote:...they where prescribed, ...

Please, people, look up the definition of Proscribed and Prescribed. The Writ actually does both, but some forms of mathematics were forbidden i.e Proscribed.

(Pasquale's book Prescribes things like the construction and care of fresh-water tanks on ships, while Proscribing things like lead plumbing for drinking water.)

Do we actually have anything concrete proscribing some forms of mathematics or did the use of Roman numerals simply make it practically impossible?

Don

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n7axw wrote:Do we actually have anything concrete proscribing some forms of mathematics or did the use of Roman numerals simply make it practically impossible?

Don

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I do remember the text niethil mentions, but I can't find it to verify whether it is an explicit Proscription or simply the result of the prescription to use Roman Numerals.

I suspect you are correct that it is simply a practical matter rather than an explicit Proscription; the latter would make adoption of Arabic numerals problematic.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Do we actually have anything concrete proscribing some forms of mathematics or did the use of Roman numerals simply make it practically impossible?

Don

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I do remember the text niethil mentions, but I can't find it to verify whether it is an explicit Proscription or simply the result of the prescription to use Roman Numerals.

I suspect you are correct that it is simply a practical matter rather than an explicit Proscription; the latter would make adoption of Arabic numerals problematic.

Arabic numerals - or indeed ANY alternative to Roman numerals - are NOT Proscribed. Paityr Wylsynn was very clear on this point when questioned about it. The Writ just teaches Roman Numerals and simply does not mention alternatives.

What Maklyn is making sense of is cryptic comments made by various Angels that could never work under Roman numerals, but become understandable when working with Arabic numerals.

Really, the most surprising thing to me is that something LIKE Arabic numerals haven't already been reinvented. It's built into English now after all. Any number past the teens is enunciated in a base ten system: Twenty Five, Forty Two, A hundred and thirty five, etc etc.

evilauthor wrote:
Arabic numerals - or indeed ANY alternative to Roman numerals - are NOT Proscribed. Paityr Wylsynn was very clear on this point when questioned about it. The Writ just teaches Roman Numerals and simply does not mention alternatives.

What Maklyn is making sense of is cryptic comments made by various Angels that could never work under Roman numerals, but become understandable when working with Arabic numerals.

Really, the most surprising thing to me is that something LIKE Arabic numerals haven't already been reinvented. It's built into English now after all. Any number past the teens is enunciated in a base ten system: Twenty Five, Forty Two, A hundred and thirty five, etc etc.

True. But bear in mind that Father Paityr is only one intendent and even before he was brought into the inner circle stood outside the norm in how he approached the enforcement of the proscriptions.

Don

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evilauthor wrote:[

I do remember the text niethil mentions, but I can't find it to verify whether it is an explicit Proscription or simply the result of the prescription to use Roman Numerals.

I suspect you are correct that it is simply a practical matter rather than an explicit Proscription; the latter would make adoption of Arabic numerals problematic.

Arabic numerals - or indeed ANY alternative to Roman numerals - are NOT Proscribed. Paityr Wylsynn was very clear on this point when questioned about it. The Writ just teaches Roman Numerals and simply does not mention alternatives.

What Maklyn is making sense of is cryptic comments made by various Angels that could never work under Roman numerals, but become understandable when working with Arabic numerals.

Really, the most surprising thing to me is that something LIKE Arabic numerals haven't already been reinvented. It's built into English now after all. Any number past the teens is enunciated in a base ten system: Twenty Five, Forty Two, A hundred and thirty five, etc etc.[/quote]

Latin has it built in too - viginti novem = 29 (but 18 & 19 are a little strange). Undeviginti = one less than twenty = 19, Duodeviginti = two less than twenty = 18. That is the only exception, even twelve is better than english - duodecim - two and ten the order gets tweaked after twenty. But then no-one on safehold knows latin (yet).

No. Numerals are not proscribed. But the point is that what is proscibed and what is not depends on who is interpreting the proscriptions. There are intendants out there for whom change is proscribed. Clyntahn himself tends to be in that category. One of the things he had against Charis in the beginning was its readiness to adapt to change. And numerals would fall into that category.

Don

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