Turning points in the RMN/RHN war

Somtaaw wrote:I'd argue that Second Battle of Yeltsin wasn't truly a turning point. Second Yeltsin was Honor in Fearless, versus Sword Simmonds in Thunder of God. You might be thinking of Third Yeltsin, where it was Admiral Hamish versus CNO Parnell in the opening night of the First Haven War.

Or possible Fourth Battle of Yeltsin's Star, between Honor and First Battle Squadron and Admiral Thurston, seconded by Rear Admiral Theisman of the Masada Contingent.


Another really big turning point of the war, would have been the unwritten battle to actually take Trevor's Star, and also the Third Battle of Adler which led to Honor's capture, which was definitely a Havenite positive turning point (although a net negative since it led to many pissed off Graysons).


Second Battle of Sidemore was a turning point, since it confirmed Haven was operating in the Andermani's backyard, which helped bring them into the war they had previously stayed neutral in.


And the biggest turning point, has to be the Buttercup offensive, that nearly drove Haven completely into surrender in bare months, after the decade-plus of constant battles.

stewart wrote:

saber964 wrote:Suggested reading Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully

Echo the recommendation on "Shattered Sword". Read several accounts on the Pacific theater campaign. Shattered Sword is one of the better ones.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:

saber964 wrote:Suggested reading Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully

Echo the recommendation on "Shattered Sword". Read several accounts on the Pacific theater campaign. Shattered Sword is one of the better ones.

-- Stewart

saber964 wrote:Another couple of good books are Guadalcanal and Operation Downfall both by Richard Franks. If you can find it try Starvation Island by Erik Hammel it's Guadalcanal from the Japanese perspective.

cthia wrote:I actually considered Trevor's Star as being a turning point. But I can't settle on for whom. It was certainly an important battle. (So important that RFC has deemed it necessary to tease us with it. Possibly until some such undefined later date. For now it is relegated to the annals of the unpublished lost files.)

What was the significance of Trevor's Star? It could argued to be a turning point for the Peeps as well. Because at Trevor's Star, Hamish was the first to find out that the Peeps had gotten themselves "back on balance." They no longer flinched, ran from overwhelming odds or made tactical errors. They tore a strip of white hide off of White Haven.

cthia wrote:There were so many battles of Yeltsin that I'm the first to admit that I frequently cross wires, though I don't think I did this time...

wiki wrote:

The Second Battle of Yeltsin's Star

Following the failure of the assassination attempt on Protector Mayhew and the loss of the rest of the Masadan fleet at the Battle of Blackbird, the Council of Elders decided to seize control of MNS Thunder of God from her People's Navy officers and carry out a nuclear bombardment of Grayson before Manticoran reinforcements could arrive to help defend the Yeltsin System against further attacks.

The raging Masadans had become desperate after their losses at Blackbird. They wanted to completely wipe out the heretic. They wanted to expose the Grayson infidels to the "doctrine of the nuclear test." A nuclear bombardment would have totally erased the most important RMN ally.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Second ... n%27s_Star

Crown Loyalist wrote:I'd argue the turning point in the war took place a few decades before the war started, when King Roger decided to open Project Gram.

They were graduating early. Not as early as some of their predecessors had before Eighth Fleet's decisive offensive under Earl White Haven. But much earlier than their immediate predecessors had, now that Eighth Fleet's triumph had been thrown away like so much garbage. And they were headed not to the deployments of peacetime midshipman cruises, but directly into the cauldron of a new war.

A losing war, Dame Beatrice thought harshly, wondering how many of those youthful faces would die in the next few desperate months. How many of the minds behind those faces truly understood the monumental betrayal which was about to send them straight into the furnace?

cthia wrote:There were so many battles of Yeltsin that I'm the first to admit that I frequently cross wires, though I don't think I did this time...

wiki wrote:

The Second Battle of Yeltsin's Star

Following the failure of the assassination attempt on Protector Mayhew and the loss of the rest of the Masadan fleet at the Battle of Blackbird, the Council of Elders decided to seize control of MNS Thunder of God from her People's Navy officers and carry out a nuclear bombardment of Grayson before Manticoran reinforcements could arrive to help defend the Yeltsin System against further attacks.

The raging Masadans had become desperate after their losses at Blackbird. They wanted to completely wipe out the heretic. They wanted to expose the Grayson infidels to the "doctrine of the nuclear test." A nuclear bombardment would have totally erased the most important RMN ally.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Second ... n%27s_Star

Somtaaw wrote:I'd really say this wasn't a turning point of the WAR, because it was still cats-paws and subtle maneuvers.

Additionally, while Grayson has definitely been a net-positive for Manticore, the majority of their technology increases would have come regardless of Grayson's help, with the exception of improved compensators and eventually Katana's.

Ghost Rider would have come along anyways, along with beta-squared's and MDM's. As long as Manticore could still have played out the initial opening battles, which the only major 'change' if Grayson had been nuked, would have been the future ambush of Parnell by White Haven would have been in a different location. And then small future battles, like Sidemore versus Second Fleet aided by Protector's Own, etc would have been different.

cthia wrote:Not that I disagree. I'd just like for you to elaborate. It's just that I'd've thought the second coup would qualify as more of a turning point, pro Peeps. Post second coup, they certainly "got themselves back on balance" as a certain celery chaser is fond of quilling. Says White Haven at Trevor's Star as well - a lesson that tore a strip of white arse out of that Haven.