Honorverse Hall of Shame

What about Rajampet? Or Crandall?

Or Commodore Chalker (Mister "GET YOUR G- D- SHIPS THE H- OUT OF MY SPACE" - the one who blatantly threatened to open fire on unarmed merchant ships)?

Sonya Hemphill deserves to be here but not for Pavel's trial. She should be here for the Blatant lies of Janacek she did nothing to refute. Lies that, I might add, lead directly to Thunderbolt.

She could have refuted her cousin/uncle whatever which would have hamstrung his naval policy if the head of BuWeaps called BS that it was impossible to replicate the Alliance's advantages, especially after the announcement of the Podnaughts.

In the same book I'll call out Elizabeth for failing to force the Constitutional crisis she refused to force while St. Just was still in power. I could see not forcing the confrontation while the Peeps were still in active action against the Alliance but after the restoration she could have forced the confrontation at any time after that. After all the Republic was engaged in a 5-sided civil war.

BrightSoul wrote:Sonya Hemphill deserves to be here but not for Pavel's trial. She should be here for the Blatant lies of Janacek she did nothing to refute. Lies that, I might add, lead directly to Thunderbolt.

She could have refuted her cousin/uncle whatever which would have hamstrung his naval policy if the head of BuWeaps called BS that it was impossible to replicate the Alliance's advantages, especially after the announcement of the Podnaughts.

And got put on half-pay, cousin or no cousin. Where there would be damn-all she could do about it.

In the same book I'll call out Elizabeth for failing to force the Constitutional crisis she refused to force while St. Just was still in power. I could see not forcing the confrontation while the Peeps were still in active action against the Alliance but after the restoration she could have forced the confrontation at any time after that. After all the Republic was engaged in a 5-sided civil war.

I suspect that refusing to accept a Prime Minister, and repudiating one after accepting, would be two very different situations.
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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!

BrightSoul wrote:Sonya Hemphill deserves to be here but not for Pavel's trial. She should be here for the Blatant lies of Janacek she did nothing to refute. Lies that, I might add, lead directly to Thunderbolt.

She could have refuted her cousin/uncle whatever which would have hamstrung his naval policy if the head of BuWeaps called BS that it was impossible to replicate the Alliance's advantages, especially after the announcement of the Podnaughts.

In the same book I'll call out Elizabeth for failing to force the Constitutional crisis she refused to force while St. Just was still in power. I could see not forcing the confrontation while the Peeps were still in active action against the Alliance but after the restoration she could have forced the confrontation at any time after that. After all the Republic was engaged in a 5-sided civil war.

I was a little unfairly ticked off at Sonja as well, to be honest.

But Elizabeth? I often found myself screaming at the books. Elizabeth, where's your steel!? It just never sat right for me that a Queen would have so little actual power. Certainly nothing approaching the authority of Protector Benjamin. Heck, Honor was more of a Queen, dictator actually, of her subjects than Elizabeth.

I kept cheering for Elizabeth to loose Ariel on the lot, to wreak havoc and literally cut out the middle men.

And you know that Ariel must have often suggested to Elizabeth, <Oh come on. Just this once. Pleeease!>

How did y'all get this far into the thread without mentioning any Detweilers?

Imaginos1892 wrote:And got put on half-pay, cousin or no cousin. Where there would be damn-all she could do about it.

Horse Hockey... if he beached her the opposition would be able to completely destroy the man's credibility. Keep in mind he couldn't beach Kuzack. He had a choice, Hamish or her, he didn't have enough political capital to cashier both.

Sonya would cripple him, especially after he made claims that no one could match the new ships. On top of that he'd still be dealing with the Countess of Low Dehli in the Lords every day. I dare say it would have been even worse since she'd be there to refute his claims every time he opened his mouth.

As for the Palmer institute, with Every major leader from the war on the beach and disputing their claims it would be a disaster.

Imaginos1892 wrote:I suspect that refusing to accept a Prime Minister, and repudiating one after accepting, would be two very different situations.
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Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!

She wouldn't have to displace the Prime Minister, simply refuse his choice for ministers. Demand new ministers from within the parties aligned against her, back-benchers who've been excluded from power by High Ridge, New Kiev and Descroix. Demand Janacek step down and refuse their appointments until they get to someone she can stand. I can't believe she doesn't know who the few moderates within the parties who would make more rational decisions.

Keep in mind that High Ridge had to keep a Liberal he could control in the Home office to cover up the Manpower Scandal. All she'd have to do is simply decline any ministers she thought were lying sacks of shit (Ariel anyone?). Control the Foreign office, home office and admiralty and High Ridge is screwed. I imagine that after the first couple years with no movement on peace talks she would have been justified to require a new foreign minister, let alone the Admiralty after the gutting of her defenses or the destruction of the Alliance (failures to uphold treaty responsibilities a la Erewhon).

She had a lot of reasons to force the issue. If nothing else she should have forced the election before it ever got this bad. Once the High Ridge government held power for two years with no change to the peace talks and the abject failures of their foreign policy in regards to Erewhon she could have forced the election they desperately couldn't afford as the San Martinos would get seated in both the commons and the Lords.

Your understanding of how parliamentary systems work appears to be rather spotty; your knowledge, unless you have an inside track denied the rest of us, of the Constitution of the Star Kingdom of Manticore is decidedly deficient.

My _deduction_, based on what Himself has said in the books and elsewhere [see the FAQs and Dahak's Infodump collection], is that the founders intended to create a Westminster-model constitutional monarchy enshrining the Sovereignty of Parliament, in which the Monarch reigns but does not rule. The absoluteness of that sovereignty is something that, in the original, was driven home pretty emphatically - sharply, one might even say - on January 30th, 1649, and settled for good 13 February 1689. I have no doubt that that was the model followed in writing the text of the Constitution. The problem that the people drafting it would have faced is that much of that model has never been codified, so they didn't have anything to crib from when making sure that all the i's were crossed and t's dotted - in fact, they would have had quite a time even finding some of them. It's no surprise that Elisabeth I was able to pull a fast one with all the loose ends when it came to the actual distribution of power, but the fundamental point would have been carved in stone: it's the Lords who wield that Sovereignty - which means that while they can depose the Queen, _she_ cannot depose _them_. Any attempt by Elisabeth III to do what you are insisting on could be met with the straightforward statement that the Constitution gave her no right to do it.

Then what happens? At best, an acceptance something approaching the status quo ante, at worst, a reversion to a [probably unworkable] literal reading of the Constitution. Either way, a generation or two of political and social chaos that could easily gut the Kingdom's economic and political strength.

BrightSoul wrote:

Imaginos1892 wrote:And got put on half-pay, cousin or no cousin. Where there would be damn-all she could do about it.

Horse Hockey... if he beached her the opposition would be able to completely destroy the man's credibility. Keep in mind he couldn't beach Kuzack. He had a choice, Hamish or her, he didn't have enough political capital to cashier both.

Sonya would cripple him, especially after he made claims that no one could match the new ships. On top of that he'd still be dealing with the Countess of Low Dehli in the Lords every day. I dare say it would have been even worse since she'd be there to refute his claims every time he opened his mouth.

As for the Palmer institute, with Every major leader from the war on the beach and disputing their claims it would be a disaster.

Imaginos1892 wrote:I suspect that refusing to accept a Prime Minister, and repudiating one after accepting, would be two very different situations.
-------------------
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here - this is the War Room!

She wouldn't have to displace the Prime Minister, simply refuse his choice for ministers. Demand new ministers from within the parties aligned against her, back-benchers who've been excluded from power by High Ridge, New Kiev and Descroix. Demand Janacek step down and refuse their appointments until they get to someone she can stand. I can't believe she doesn't know who the few moderates within the parties who would make more rational decisions.

Keep in mind that High Ridge had to keep a Liberal he could control in the Home office to cover up the Manpower Scandal. All she'd have to do is simply decline any ministers she thought were lying sacks of shit (Ariel anyone?). Control the Foreign office, home office and admiralty and High Ridge is screwed. I imagine that after the first couple years with no movement on peace talks she would have been justified to require a new foreign minister, let alone the Admiralty after the gutting of her defenses or the destruction of the Alliance (failures to uphold treaty responsibilities a la Erewhon).

She had a lot of reasons to force the issue. If nothing else she should have forced the election before it ever got this bad. Once the High Ridge government held power for two years with no change to the peace talks and the abject failures of their foreign policy in regards to Erewhon she could have forced the election they desperately couldn't afford as the San Martinos would get seated in both the commons and the Lords.

My thoughts and ideas revolve around the comment Honor makes about how the Queen couldn't afford a costitutional crisis during a war. If the "War" in question has turned into an extended cease fire and is no l0onger a hot war then why couldn't and didn't the queen force the crisis after High Ridge a)deliberately ignored the Star Kingdom's treaty obligations, b) maintained a deliberate state of war, c)used that state of war to maintain war-time tax structure, and d) used said "State of War" to hold off elections.

Are you telling me that no one including every shipping corporation using the Manticore Junction (Solarian, Beowulfan, Manticoran and Grayson shipping cartels) wouldn't be able to put huge pressure on Manticore to resolve the matter and reduce the transit fees? No one at all has the stones to sue for tax relief. No way to force pressure on the corrupt High Ridge government?

Lets not kid ourselves. That one book in the entire series stretches credibility.

There are countless possibilities for ways to derail the High Ridge Government.

Here's just one.

Ben sends Honor directly to the President of Haven after the republic is restored. Maintaining a direct channel that bypasses the High Ridge Government. If she comes up with something that Ben and Elizabeth can accept and presents it publicly the High Ridge Government would be hard pressed. If nothing else they have to get the peace treaty first. If Honor, the Protector and the Queen can get a deal done before they do their entire platform falls apart. Building the Peace and all that?

From my understanding of the Star Kingdom's constitution and the history of the Winton Dynasty was that it is very unlike the Constitution of the US. It is a fluid situation that was originally designed to keep the Dynasty a figurehead. Unfortunately that isn't what the original lords got. Elizabeth I changed all that over the period of her reign. Each successive generation working to strengthen what Elizabeth I built.

On top of this is the external pressures. We already know that a ridiculous percentage of all league shipping travels in Manty hulls and theough the Manty wormhole network as well as their financial networks. Where is the pressure from business to regularize relations and reduce fees and taxes? No lawsuits? No diplomatic pressure?

Lets not even get into the San Martinos and the High Ridge delays in seating their representatives.

5 years and no pressure except Honor and Hamish debating the Military Budgets seem to threaten their grip on power? Gimme a break. If that happened here, in any western nation, there would be an almost continuous commentary on every station. It would be more likely that the HRI (High Ridge Interregnum) would decline than improve in the polls after 5 years under wartime taxes and no state of war.

cthia wrote:

George J. Smith wrote:I nominate, Solomon Marchant.

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I suggest you modify that to Edmund Marchant.

Solomon was the Grayson Commander on Hell with Honor and previously XO of GSN Jason Alverez

-- Stewart

JeffEngel wrote:

saber964 wrote:Well considering that Michael Janvier is doing a nice stretch in prison.

I'm sure Manticore can install him somewhere perfectly unpleasant without that much effort. Possibly a nice camp at one of Grymphon's poles. Or hand him off to one of the Medusan back-country tribes to clean the latrines for 50 years.

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Oh, please, be nice. 6 month at Gryphons North pole in Southern Summer and 6 months at Gryphons South pole during Northern Summer. Just so he can have a change of climate.

-- Stewart