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Turning points in the RMN/RHN war

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Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by cthia   » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:31 pm

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I deplored history throughout High School, but found out quickly in college that it had been the dry, monotonous delivery of certain High School teachers during those years, as in college my American Civil War professor made history one of my most liked subjects. The guy dressed the part. He'd come into class with a Confederate or Union uniform with makeshift blood all over him. He had a way of thrusting his students into the battle with the loading of muskets and the sound of firing rounds. Oh what a difference a scholar makes.

Since then, any extracurricular reading greatly interests me. I was lately reading about the turning points in both the American Civil War and World War II. A few are listed below. Of course my real life baggage made me consider what battle(s) were the turning points for the RMN, or could have been the turning point for the RHN had they won.

What battles do you personally think qualifies as a turning point (or could have been) for either side in the RMN/RHN war? Either because of strategic significance and or because of decisive tech, as in the Spencer Rifle in the American Civil War. Other than BoM which is obvious.

Personally, I think the Second Battle of Yeltsin could have been one such turning point for the Peeps. It would have allowed the nuclear bombardment of Grayson, ridding the RMN of that ally.

Please forgive the length of this post. What follows are simply real-life examples that history provides. Reading ahead is not necessary for your participation. It is simply included in hopes of achieving a certain goal of completeness of post, convenience and FYI. Continued reading beyond this point is not a prerequisite.


Turning Points In Wars...

World War II

Great Britain and France declare war

1939 - In response to Hitler's invasion of Poland, Great Britain and France declared war on Germany. This surprised the over-confident Hitler and diverted his grand plan from its intended course by opening a second war front.

Hitler's original plan was to occupy Poland, then Russia, and with Russia's endless natural resources in his control, to take the rest of the world while having one war front at a time.

Hitler partly rectified this diversion by occupying France in mid 1940, but the 2nd front remained during the entire war, and denied Germany of the ability to strategically follow the prime principle of war, the principle of concentration of effort .

The Battle of Britain

Summer 1940 - In his attempt to "close" the western front and return his grand plan to its original course, Hitler rapidly occupied France in a Blitzkrieg invasion. He then followed with an unprepared attempt to beat Britain in an air campaign that would enable invading the British island.

The German Luftwaffe, which was built primarily for massive tactical air support of German ground forces, suffered greatly from lack of heavy bombers and from short flight range of its fighters in the battle of Britain. Fighting the entire battle over Britain meant also that while for the Luftwaffe each lost aircraft meant losing a trained crew, many downed British pilots were able to return to duty and keep fighting, so for an equal number of downed planes, the Luftwaffe had much greater losses in trained pilots. The smaller Royal Air Force was initially losing the battle to the stronger Luftwaffe. This changed when in the middle of the battle Hitler ordered to change the objective of the Luftwaffe's effort from destroying the Royal Air Force to terror bombing London. This big mistake, and the other problems of the Luftwaffe mentioned above, allowed the Royal Air Force to recover, increase the Luftwaffe's loss rate while maintaining its own force, and win the battle of Britain. The western front remained "open" and active.

The Battle of Moscow

In mid 1941, despite still having a western front, Hitler turned back East, to achieve his long desired prime objective of invading and occupying Russia, which was then also preparing its huge military to a preemptive attack against him.

Despite years of preparing for this declared objective, the German military was simply not prepared to perform in the extreme conditions of the Russian winter. Because of that, and with total confidence in their success, Hitler and his Generals gambled EVERYTHING on the German military's ability to defeat Russia before the winter.

What did happen, was that the Germans managed to catch the Russians in a complete surprise, but even that was not enough.

Following Stalin's direct order, the Russian intelligence made a huge effort to constantly monitor for any preparation by the German military to equip itself for the severe conditions of the Russian winter, the single most clear warning sign of a coming German attack. There were no such preparations, and since he could not believe that Hitler will make such a wild gamble of invading Russia unprepared for winter, Stalin dismissed all the warnings he received from his intelligence that Germany was going to attack
.
Thanks to this complete surprise, the invading German military caught the Russian army in a very bad position. The Russian losses in men and equipment were tremendous, they lost not just the entire vast territory between Poland and Moscow, but also almost the entire military force that was there.

The advancing German army, aided by efficient tactical air support of the Luftwaffe which dominated the sky above, advanced all the way to Moscow, but there and then, in the extreme winter of late 1941, the German military ran out of both time and thrust.

It was exhausted and stretched to the limit, and was already suffering badly from the winter, when it was massively counter-attacked near Moscow by fresh Russian reinforcements which were brought from the far other side of Russia, from Siberia and the far East. These fresh forces which were perfectly equipped for extreme winter conditions stopped the German advance and even pushed the Germans back. Moscow was saved, the Germans were stopped, and that marked the limit of what the German military could achieve in the eastern front. They had great victories in Russia, but Russia, with its endless resources and territory and its tough winter and people, was too much for them. When the winter passed the Germans advanced again, far and deep, but not in the direction of Moscow, and they could no longer defeat Russia.

Pearl Harbor

December 7, 1941 - The Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor forced the US into the war at the same time when Hitler was stopped near Moscow. Since then, the final outcome of the war was inevitable. It was just a matter of time.

As for Japan, in Pearl Harbor it just started a war it could not win. Admiral Yamamoto, their greatest military leader, warned them of that, but the extreme militarist Japanese leadership refused to consider other options.

Midway

June 1942 - Just six months after Pearl Harbor, even before the war potential of the US was translated to vast new fleets, the Japanese Navy lost its aircraft carriers force in the battle of Midway, and with it its superiority in the Pacific Ocean and Japan's initiative.

Stalingrad and Kursk
In the two following summers of 1942 and 1943, Hitler attacked in Russia again with all the force his army still had, but in both cases his advancing forces were first stopped by fierce defensive fighting of Russian lines of defense, and later heavily beaten in massive counter attacks that caused the Germans huge losses which at that stage were no longer replaceable.

After these two great bloody battles, the Russian army gained the initiative and moved from defense to attack, an attack which pushed the German army all the way back to Berlin.

Admiral Max Horton gets command

November 1942 - As the new commander of the allied forces in the North atlantic, Admiral Horton, a former submarine captain and commander of the British submarine force, taught the air and naval forces under his command how to fight against the German U-boat submarines much more effectively than they did before.

The difference was significant. After a period of training and preparations, the escorted ship convoys in the North atlantic no longer tried to avoid engagement with the German submarine "wolf packs". Now they were ready to meet them and sink them. After several lethal engagements, Admiral Doenitz, the commander of the German submarines force, ordered all his submarines to return to their bases until a new tactic will be developed.

The hunters became the hunted, and the sea way was opened to mass move America's new military might to England in order to attack Germany from above and later on the ground.

Long range fighters

Late 1943 - The British night bombing campaign of German targets could not be as precise and efficient as daylight bombing. The American heavy bombers bombed in daylight, but even with many gunners on each bomber they suffered heavy losses from the Luftwaffe's fighters.

The arrival of long range fighters, especially the P-51 Mustang, enabled allied fighter pilots to escort the heavy bombers all the way to their targets in Germany and back. This greatly reduced the losses of bombers, and constantly reduced the Luftwaffe's force.

The result was that the mighty allied air power was finally able to efficiently strike the German military industry and its vital resources again and again, and to cause heavy losses to the Luftwaffe. This significantly weakened the German forces in all fronts.

D-Day

June 6, 1944 - After months and years of fighting and preparations, the western allies were finally ready for their decisive move of invading Western Europe in order to occupy Germany from West to match the Russian advance from the East.

D-Day, the invasion of France, did not change the outcome of the war, as Germany was already losing it, but it marked the long awaited beginning of the last chapter of the war. The war ended a year after D-Day .

http://www.2worldwar2.com/turning-point ... -war-2.htm


American Civil War

Many consider July 4, 1863 to be the turning point of the American Civil War. Two important, famous, well-documented battles resulted in Confederate defeats: the Battle of Gettysburg (Pennsylvania), July 1-3, and the Fall of Vicksburg (Mississippi), July 4. However, two other major, lesser-known events resulted in two additional Confederate defeats. Both losses, one in Tennessee and one in Arkansas, were influenced by the Vicksburg Campaign.

In central Tennessee, Maj. Gen. William S. Rosecrans, leading the United States Army of the Cumberland, faced Gen. Braxton Bragg's Confederate Army of Tennessee. In early May 1863, the federal government feared that Bragg might send reinforcements to Vicksburg. To preclude this from happening, Rosecrans was ordered to begin an offensive in an attempt to tie down Confederate troops.

In late June, Rosecrans moved southeast from Murfreesboro with five corps, totaling approximately 65,000 men. Bragg deployed four corps, totaling about 44,000 men, behind a ridge line called the Highland Rim, covering the avenues of approach to Chattanooga and its rail hub. Though no large set-piece battle occurred, Rosecrans' skillful maneuvering through four passes and around Confederate flanks, forced Bragg southeastward to Tullahoma, then Decherd and finally across the Tennessee River July 4. The Tullahoma Campaign resulted in the Union conquest of central Tennessee.

Historians find it interesting to note that Union technology played a role in the campaign with several mounted infantry units being equipped with the seven-shot Spencer Repeating Rifle.

The rifle's inventor, Christopher Spencer, gained an audience with President Abraham Lincoln, who subsequently invited him to a shooting match and demonstration of the weapon. Impressed with the rifle, Lincoln ordered be produced for the Union Army in 1863.

In its first combat test, Spencer-armed Union troops under the command of Col. John Wilder earned the nickname "Lightning Brigade" when they defeated a numerically superior Confederate force at the Battle of Hoover's Gap, Tenn., June 24, 1863. One week later, Spencer rifles again saw action in the hands of troopers of the 5th Michigan Cavalry Regiment of Gen. George Armstrong Custer's brigade at the Battle of Gettysburg.

With the new weapon, a rifleman could shoot up to 14 rounds per minute as opposed to three rounds per minute with the traditional muzzle-loading musket.

At Helena, Ark., Maj. Gen. Benjamin Prentiss commanded about 4,000 Union troops assigned to the District of Eastern Arkansas. Earlier in June 1863, Prentiss had 16,000 troops siphoned off from his command to assist in the Vicksburg Campaign. This situation pleased Lt. Gen. Theophilus H. Holmes, commanding general of the Confederate District of Arkansas. He had about 7,000 men, organized in three divisions, to attack Helena in an attempt to take some pressure off Vicksburg.

Helena was situated 230 miles north of Vicksburg on the west bank of the Mississippi River. Just to the west of the town was Fort Curtis, an earthen bastion. Additionally, four batteries of artillery were placed on hills in a semi-circle. Floating close to the riverbank was the USS Tyler, a paddlewheel steamer armed with one rifled gun and six smoothbore cannon.

On the morning on July 4, Holmes launched an uncoordinated attack, bereft of reconnaissance and intelligence. The three divisions attacked from the northwest, west and southwest. The battle was a Confederate disaster. Only one of the artillery batteries was taken, but Fort Curtis blunted any further advance. The USS Tyler provided naval gunfire support, lobbing over 400 rounds. Confederate dead, wounded, missing and captured (1,636) equaled approximately 20 percent of the attacking force. Union losses were 239.

The Battle of Helena, coupled with the loss of Vicksburg, signaled the end of major Confederate operations in Arkansas, now cut off from the eight states east of the Mississippi River.

--

The U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command has the mission to develop technology and engineering solutions for America's Soldiers.

RDECOM is a major subordinate command of the U.S. Army Materiel Command. AMC is the Army's premier provider of materiel readiness -- technology, acquisition support, materiel development, logistics power projection, and sustainment -- to the total force, across the spectrum of joint military operations. If a Soldier shoots it, drives it, flies it, wears it, eats it or communicates with it, AMC provides it.

http://www.army.mil/article/106837/

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by saber964   » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:14 pm

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You forgot about Guadalcanal. Not many people know about the attritional nature of the battle or at least understate it. At Midway the IJN didn't lose all that many pilots and aircrew. IIRC it was about 10-15% of the personnel. The IJN and the IJA high command sent all of the pilots and aircrew plus the aircraft maintenance personnel to the Solomon islands to cover up the fiasco. Almost all of the surviving personnel died during the campaign, IIRC only 3 pilots who were at Midway survived Guadalcanal. Wounded were sent to special hospitals run by the Kipi Tai (secret police) as the wounded recovered they were also sent south. Some of the wounded weren't released until 1944.

Suggested reading Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by pnakasone   » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:52 pm

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saber964 wrote:You forgot about Guadalcanal. Not many people know about the attritional nature of the battle or at least understate it. At Midway the IJN didn't lose all that many pilots and aircrew. IIRC it was about 10-15% of the personnel. The IJN and the IJA high command sent all of the pilots and aircrew plus the aircraft maintenance personnel to the Solomon islands to cover up the fiasco. Almost all of the surviving personnel died during the campaign, IIRC only 3 pilots who were at Midway survived Guadalcanal. Wounded were sent to special hospitals run by the Kipi Tai (secret police) as the wounded recovered they were also sent south. Some of the wounded weren't released until 1944.

Suggested reading Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully



The personnel lost where effectively all from the top skill sets. This magnified the effect of the lose of that segment of personnel beyond just the numbers.
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by stewart   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:34 am

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saber964 wrote:Suggested reading Shattered Sword by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully


Echo the recommendation on "Shattered Sword". Read several accounts on the Pacific theater campaign. Shattered Sword is one of the better ones.

-- Stewart
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by kzt   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:51 am

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The overthrow of the Peep government in the first coup.
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:48 am

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kzt wrote:The overthrow of the Peep government in the first coup.

Not that I disagree. I'd just like for you to elaborate. It's just that I'd've thought the second coup would qualify as more of a turning point, pro Peeps. Post second coup, they certainly "got themselves back on balance" as a certain celery chaser is fond of quilling. Says White Haven at Trevor's Star as well - a lesson that tore a strip of white arse out of that Haven.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by Dauntless   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:27 am

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kzt wrote:The overthrow of the Peep government in the first coup.


this first coup changed everything. yes it cost the peep navy a lot of its higher and more experienced officers and a lot of the early fights but it motivated the proles! it got them off the butts and got them actively involved in the fight, be that as soldiers in the SS/marines or joining the navy or actually learning how to do things so they could help fix the navy's ships.

Pierre and co rightfully deserve their place in hell, but without that first coup the "people" would not have cared who at the top as long as the money kept coming, thus making the plan to restore the original republic a non-starter.
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by Dauntless   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:32 am

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also the battle of sidemore.

on many levels the fight wasn't that big but it made the andies nervous that despite being told that the new republic wasn't interested in silessa, the leopard had not changed its spots.

without andy support the second havenite war would have much, much harder for the RMN which had lost so much in thunderbolt. The arrival of the Andies bought the manties the time needed to clean house (high ride etc) and much needed ship support while they scrambled to make up for the losses thunderbolt had caused, gendelbanse was an incredible loss of ships and talent.
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by Somtaaw   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:59 am

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I'd argue that Second Battle of Yeltsin wasn't truly a turning point. Second Yeltsin was Honor in Fearless, versus Sword Simmonds in Thunder of God. You might be thinking of Third Yeltsin, where it was Admiral Hamish versus CNO Parnell in the opening night of the First Haven War.

Or possible Fourth Battle of Yeltsin's Star, between Honor and First Battle Squadron and Admiral Thurston, seconded by Rear Admiral Theisman of the Masada Contingent.


Another really big turning point of the war, would have been the unwritten battle to actually take Trevor's Star, and also the Third Battle of Adler which led to Honor's capture, which was definitely a Havenite positive turning point (although a net negative since it led to many pissed off Graysons).


Second Battle of Sidemore was a turning point, since it confirmed Haven was operating in the Andermani's backyard, which helped bring them into the war they had previously stayed neutral in.


And the biggest turning point, has to be the Buttercup offensive, that nearly drove Haven completely into surrender in bare months, after the decade-plus of constant battles.
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Re: Turning points in the RMN/RHN war
Post by cthia   » Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:31 am

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Somtaaw wrote:I'd argue that Second Battle of Yeltsin wasn't truly a turning point. Second Yeltsin was Honor in Fearless, versus Sword Simmonds in Thunder of God. You might be thinking of Third Yeltsin, where it was Admiral Hamish versus CNO Parnell in the opening night of the First Haven War.

Or possible Fourth Battle of Yeltsin's Star, between Honor and First Battle Squadron and Admiral Thurston, seconded by Rear Admiral Theisman of the Masada Contingent.


Another really big turning point of the war, would have been the unwritten battle to actually take Trevor's Star, and also the Third Battle of Adler which led to Honor's capture, which was definitely a Havenite positive turning point (although a net negative since it led to many pissed off Graysons).


Second Battle of Sidemore was a turning point, since it confirmed Haven was operating in the Andermani's backyard, which helped bring them into the war they had previously stayed neutral in.


And the biggest turning point, has to be the Buttercup offensive, that nearly drove Haven completely into surrender in bare months, after the decade-plus of constant battles.



****** *


There were so many battles of Yeltsin that I'm the first to admit that I frequently cross wires, though I don't think I did this time...
wiki wrote:

The Second Battle of Yeltsin's Star

Following the failure of the assassination attempt on Protector Mayhew and the loss of the rest of the Masadan fleet at the Battle of Blackbird, the Council of Elders decided to seize control of MNS Thunder of God from her People's Navy officers and carry out a nuclear bombardment of Grayson before Manticoran reinforcements could arrive to help defend the Yeltsin System against further attacks.

The raging Masadans had become desperate after their losses at Blackbird. They wanted to completely wipe out the heretic. They wanted to expose the Grayson infidels to the "doctrine of the nuclear test." A nuclear bombardment would have totally erased the most important RMN ally.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Second ... n%27s_Star

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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