Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

I doubt Harshu will allow him self to be caught off guard, now that he knowsSharonian troops have come in behind him. An advance from his rear will likely cause him to reposition his forces, until he is ready to attempt a breakout. In this case the superior Arcana mobility will be used to decline engagement until Harshu believes he is ready for it.

Mil-tech bard wrote:I don't see more than 50% of the AEF transport dragons and 1/3 of the ground forces getting out.

You might be over estimating the survival rate of the AEF. The Sharonians have brought plenty of artillery, and unless they have no choice they will prioritze dragons with the lighter, easier to elevate, pieces. If enough transports are killed chan Geraith may be able to force a complete surrender of the trapped force. To do so he would have to convince Harshu (or whoever is in command at that point) that escape isn't possible.

Advancing through the Mahritha swamp will be a challenge for Sharona. It is one of the areas where Arcanan units would have a chance to slow the advance down, although I don't see the advance being stopped completely. The attempts to slow Sharonian units will also cost in terms of combat dragons and ground forces. Sharona will have to build up its logistics first.

As for Ransarans allowing the war to go forward, I suspect that the vast majority of them will be opposed to it on principle; unless Sharona makes the mistake of convincing them it is either fight or die. A good question is what the "minor", as yet undisclosed Arcanan groups, will decide about Sharon's. The smaller groups could add up if they all come out in favor of war, or against it.

Astelon wrote:I doubt Harshu will allow him self to be caught off guard, now that he knowsSharonian troops have come in behind him. An advance from his rear will likely cause him to reposition his forces, until he is ready to attempt a breakout. In this case the superior Arcana mobility will be used to decline engagement until Harshu believes he is ready for it.

Mil-tech bard wrote:I don't see more than 50% of the AEF transport dragons and 1/3 of the ground forces getting out.

You might be over estimating the survival rate of the AEF. The Sharonians have brought plenty of artillery, and unless they have no choice they will prioritze dragons with the lighter, easier to elevate, pieces. If enough transports are killed chan Geraith may be able to force a complete surrender of the trapped force. To do so he would have to convince Harshu (or whoever is in command at that point) that escape isn't possible.

Advancing through the Mahritha swamp will be a challenge for Sharona. It is one of the areas where Arcanan units would have a chance to slow the advance down, although I don't see the advance being stopped completely. The attempts to slow Sharonian units will also cost in terms of combat dragons and ground forces. Sharona will have to build up its logistics first.

As for Ransarans allowing the war to go forward, I suspect that the vast majority of them will be opposed to it on principle; unless Sharona makes the mistake of convincing them it is either fight or die. A good question is what the "minor", as yet undisclosed Arcanan groups, will decide about Sharon's. The smaller groups could add up if they all come out in favor of war, or against it.

I agree that Harshu won't be caught by surprise. However if Chan Geraith advances into his rear, the most Harshu would be able to get aboard the dragons would be 1/3 of his men, or, let's say roughly 4500. That diminishes his strength for an open field battle against a force already stronger than he in fighting power if not numbers. Then the third he does get out have to get past the portals...

None of this even considers the Sharonians coming up through the gap once Harshu can no longer defend it.

I'm with you in doubting that many of Harshu's people get out.

Don

-

Astelon wrote:I doubt Harshu will allow him self to be caught off guard, now that he knowsSharonian troops have come in behind him. An advance from his rear will likely cause him to reposition his forces, until he is ready to attempt a breakout. In this case the superior Arcana mobility will be used to decline engagement until Harshu believes he is ready for it.

Mil-tech bard wrote:I don't see more than 50% of the AEF transport dragons and 1/3 of the ground forces getting out.

You might be over estimating the survival rate of the AEF. The Sharonians have brought plenty of artillery, and unless they have no choice they will prioritze dragons with the lighter, easier to elevate, pieces. If enough transports are killed chan Geraith may be able to force a complete surrender of the trapped force. To do so he would have to convince Harshu (or whoever is in command at that point) that escape isn't possible.

Advancing through the Mahritha swamp will be a challenge for Sharona. It is one of the areas where Arcanan units would have a chance to slow the advance down, although I don't see the advance being stopped completely. The attempts to slow Sharonian units will also cost in terms of combat dragons and ground forces. Sharona will have to build up its logistics first.

As for Ransarans allowing the war to go forward, I suspect that the vast majority of them will be opposed to it on principle; unless Sharona makes the mistake of convincing them it is either fight or die. A good question is what the "minor", as yet undisclosed Arcanan groups, will decide about Sharon's. The smaller groups could add up if they all come out in favor of war, or against it.

Unicorns have demonstrated an absolute mobility advantage over Sharonan Bison over unimproved terrain pulling levitation spell assisted wagons at a rate of 40 miles a day vice 25 miles a day for Bison.

I doubt Arcanian Heavy horse can do anything like that, but most are a couple of universes closer to Hell's gate.

Sending as much as can be moved by Unicorn on the ground and leap frogging the rest by Dragon back makes it doubtful Sharonan pursuit can catch anything Arcaninan prior to Harshu's planned assaults.

An Arcanian combined arms movement to contact with intensive aerial scouting -- being aware of Bison and other Sharonan motor transport -- is a different kettle of fish than what we have seen in Return to Hell.

The way to beat Sharonan artillery is to be fast, deceptive, and get right on top of Sharonans with fireball weapons.

This is doable without a Calirath Prince having a death glimpse sitting in the Sharonan command tent.

Indeed, Harshu has a chance of getting some of his folks out. The big question is how well masking spells disguise against plotters. We know they have some effect against distance viewers, but plotters do not see with their eyes. They perceive the essence of living creatures.

If a plotter's Talent is not seriously degraded by Arcanan disguise spells, Harshu'll lose quite a few dragons the first time he relies on such spells for protecting his air transport. If he fornicates the canine prodigiously enough the first time out, that's all she wrote for the AEF. The rest is a matter of mopping up and waiting for them to starve. That and sending in ranger-like forces with predictive distance viewer-snipers and plotters hunting AEF contingents.

Also, since voices can link mind to mind real time, does that mean that they can also link to the minds of other that are sufficiently talented? I am thinking of artillery operated by a Voice and connected to plotters and predictive distance viewers

Mil-tech bard wrote:
Unicorns have demonstrated an absolute mobility advantage over Sharonan Bison over unimproved terrain pulling levitation spell assisted wagons at a rate of 40 miles a day vice 25 miles a day for Bison.

I doubt Arcanian Heavy horse can do anything like that, but most are a couple of universes closer to Hell's gate.

Sending as much as can be moved by Unicorn on the ground and leap frogging the rest by Dragon back makes it doubtful Sharonan pursuit can catch anything Arcaninan prior to Harshu's planned assaults.

An Arcanian combined arms movement to contact with intensive aerial scouting -- being aware of Bison and other Sharonan motor transport -- is a different kettle of fish than what we have seen in Return to Hell.

The way to beat Sharonan artillery is to be fast, deceptive, and get right on top of Sharonans with fireball weapons.

This is doable without a Calirath Prince having a death glimpse sitting in the Sharonan command tent.

The real issue here is how limited of a supply of dragons and unicorns has left at this point in the story. IIRC, he only has about 20 battle dragons of all types left after Ft. Salby. If he attacks with those, to be sure, he is going to do some damage. But he will also start using them up and the Sharonians will become more experienced in dealing with them after each attack. The same holds true for the unicorns. He lost a quite a few of them in the attack on the fort, and although I don't have a figure for how many are left, for Harshu now that he is cut off, they are not a renewable resourse. And if he tries to get transports past the portals, he is going to use those up pretty fast as well.

I just don't see how he can get more than a tiny percentage of his people past the swamp portal no matter what he does.

Don

-

At Fort Salby, in Traisum, we saw
the Sharonan Distance Viewer see thru the Arcanan Mask Spell.
We might feel that this DV advantage will be consistant.

It occurs to me that Weber & Presby might write their story to
give that Sharonan advantage to Traisum and other heavily
settled Sharonan worlds, but not to worlds that Sharonans
haven't settled yet. The Prince's Death Glimpse showed the
DV seeing thru the Mask *in Traisum.* It did not show what
would have happened in recently and thinly settled New Uromath,
or in an Arcanan world. In those worlds the Mask Spell might
be too strong for any Sharonan Talent to see through.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Indeed, Harshu has a chance of getting some of his folks out. The big question is how well masking spells disguise against plotters. We know they have some effect against distance viewers, but plotters do not see with their eyes. They perceive the essence of living creatures.

If a plotter's Talent is not seriously degraded by Arcanan disguise spells, Harshu'll lose quite a few dragons the first time he relies on such spells for protecting his air transport.

Agreed. That still doesn't clarify if plotters are affected at all by disguise spells. The range of the plotter Talent is quite a bit farther than the range where the distance viewer could pierce the disguise spell.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:At Fort Salby, in Traisum, we saw
the Sharonan Distance Viewer see thru the Arcanan Mask Spell.
We might feel that this DV advantage will be consistant.

It occurs to me that Weber & Presby might write their story to
give that Sharonan advantage to Traisum and other heavily
settled Sharonan worlds, but not to worlds that Sharonans
haven't settled yet. The Prince's Death Glimpse showed the
DV seeing thru the Mask *in Traisum.* It did not show what
would have happened in recently and thinly settled New Uromath,
or in an Arcanan world. In those worlds the Mask Spell might
be too strong for any Sharonan Talent to see through.

HTM

PeterZ wrote:Indeed, Harshu has a chance of getting some of his folks out. The big question is how well masking spells disguise against plotters. We know they have some effect against distance viewers, but plotters do not see with their eyes. They perceive the essence of living creatures.

If a plotter's Talent is not seriously degraded by Arcanan disguise spells, Harshu'll lose quite a few dragons the first time he relies on such spells for protecting his air transport.

Many posts here have discussed whether Sharona's armies should
stop at the Swamp Portal and fortify it, instead of advancing
into Mairytha/Gharys and on into other Arcanan worlds.
The disadvantages of stopping there and waiting, as opposed to
the difficulties of advancing thru a huge swamp, are shown.

Another consideration is,
what territories are defended at that Swamp Portal?
Answer:
All of Hell's Gate World, **and**
all five (5) of the other Portals leading out of it!

I Seem To Recall that capturing those other five Portals,
and the Chains leading from them,
was one of the reasons that Arcana attacked Hell's Gate,
after they dismissed the idea that the Sharonans might
share those Portals.
Mul Gurthak's written instructions, so ambiguous otherwise,
did specify that Hell's Gate be seized and held.

If Sharona can hold HG, then those Portal Chains come with it.
Is that a reason for Sharona to put a Major Fort there?

And then there are the resources need to explore those Chains.
Arcana had not allotted any to investigate them,
even though their dragons would have made glancing into each
of them, at least, easy.
It will be more difficult and time-consuming for flightless
Sharona to send horsemen or machines to those Gates,
but it obviously ought to be done.
It will take so long for a serious Arcanan army to reach that
swamp, that Sharona will have some months to explore.

Sharona can send resources to explore five new Portals,
or they can try to explore a dragon-defended swamp.

How will Weber and Presby write the story?

Howard T. Map-addict

No, it doesn't clarify that, Peter.

It might be a hint that it was a Distance Viewer, not a Plotter,
who was told to see through the Mask Spell, but maybe not.

Besides, I find myself emotionally involved in this case.
I really want to see Spells and Talents varied in strength and
range by which world they are in. I look for this wherever I
can, and try so hard to see it that I might invent it.

Howard

PeterZ wrote:Agreed. That still doesn't clarify if
Plotters are affected at all by disguise spells. The range of
the Plotter Talent is quite a bit farther than the range
where the distance viewer could pierce the disguise spell.

n7axw wrote:The real issue here is how limited of a supply of dragons and unicorns has left at this point in the story. IIRC, he only has about 20 battle dragons of all types left after Ft. Salby. If he attacks with those, to be sure, he is going to do some damage. But he will also start using them up and the Sharonians will become more experienced in dealing with them after each attack. The same holds true for the unicorns. He lost a quite a few of them in the attack on the fort, and although I don't have a figure for how many are left, for Harshu now that he is cut off, they are not a renewable resourse. And if he tries to get transports past the portals, he is going to use those up pretty fast as well.

I just don't see how he can get more than a tiny percentage of his people past the swamp portal no matter what he does.

Don-

Don,

The Arcanian heavy horse is what got shot to pieces in Hell's Gate.

Arcanian Unicorns have not been casualties, save for those lost to the mutineers.

How badly Unicorns are going to get shot up is a different matter.

Harshu is going to razzle dazzle as hard as he can to get through the gates with as low a number of casualties as he can, but he does know he will take them.

Aerial recon before the engagement and night assaults/movements during them are his best and only options.

He may be no Rommel, but I suspect he will play some of Rommel's North African fake retreat games with heavy horse/infantry pulling pursuing Bisons onto hidden/camouflaged Arcanian field pieces before it is over.