Reflecting Upon RTH -- SPOILER THREAD

Of that list, only Wellesley turned out to be an especially sharp pencil - and he was pretty consistently dismissed as a "Sepoy General" right up to Salamanca & Vittoria.

And yes, they were considered second string: you accepted a commission in the Indian Army when no British Army regiment would take you. In fact, one of Auchinleck's problems was that he was IA, and sometimes had to bang heads together rather harder than was really appreciated by his British 'colleagues'.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:::a Naughty Moose replies::
Excuse me, Mil-tech, but
the East India Company's leaders and generals included
Clive, Hastings, Earl Cornwallis, and Arthur Wellesley.
None second string, unless we want to say that all
officers in the Army had to be second-string because
the entire first string was in the Navy.

In South Africa, Jameson was second string,
but White and Buller were not known to be that
until it was proven against them.

Naughty Moose

Mil-tech bard wrote:
This is not unprecedented in World History.

You just described the relationship between Great Britain
and the East India Company, as well as Great Britain WRT
Cecil Rhodes in Southern Africa, come to that.

Except in this case, the "Maxim guns" are on the other side.

Opps.

(I'll keep this pre Road to Hell for your benefit, Howard)
Let's consider that the Grand Plan the Shakira are working towards require their gaining control over Arcana. They might indeed accept New Arcana and/or near by universes as a consolation prize. How will they effect that control?

I see two options. 1) Gain control of the military by having officers sympathetic to their cause rise through the ranks or 2)defeat the Union military with their own forces. Assuming Mythal has paramilitary forces assembled further out from Arcana, I believe Ransar would have no problem with their heading further out towards the Sharonan front. If the Mythal army replaces the Union army marching to shed their blood, so much the better. Those forces become less of threat to Arcana and who knows? They might actually do some good.

Once at the front, if the Mythalan contingent shows their stuff and wins the war, Mythal might well get additional representation within the UoA Army. Depending on the scope of the victory, Mythal might win full control of the UoA Army. Why would Ransar see sending the hated Mythal's troops further away from Arcana as something to be feared?

I think this might well be part of the Shakira's overall plan.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Yes, Peter.
Of course, this grants that Mythal (read Shakira) would send
their Army 90,000 miles out through the Outworlds to hold
the Frontier and defeat the Others.

Premise: the Shakira care most about ruling Arcana,
and next most about New Arcana and other close worlds.
In that case, their Army goes only far enough to be out of
sight, no more than four or five worlds,
and then turns around and establishes a base to conquer
their Homeworld.

Alternately, the Shakira decamp en bloc to New Arcana,
or the next world out, seize that,
and establish their New Paradise their,
leaving everyone else to rot on Old Arcana
(except for necessary serfs).

Which Premise is predictable to Ransarans,
and to every other thinking Arcanan.

My guess is that any such offer will be refused.

HTM

PS 90,000 miles are very long for this kind of story.
I expect more Gates to open that shorten the distance.

In India? 348 years!

Oh, sorry, you said 'organized resistance'. Make that ~320 years, then.

Castenea wrote:

Mil-tech bard wrote:
This is not unprecedented in World History.

You just described the relationship between Great Britain and the East India Company, as well as Great Britain WRT Cecil Rhodes in Southern Africa, come to that.

Except in this case, the "Maxim guns" are on the other side.

Opps.

Yes, but how long were the British Empire's second stringers calling the shots once the Brits met organized, effective resistance? The counter arguments are French and Indian war where heavy reinforcements were on their way within a year (and with an ~3mo one way com lag), American Revolution, and the Boer War.

Howard T. Map-addict Sez -

None second string, unless we want to say that all officers in the Army had to be second-string because the entire first string was in the Navy.

Just So.

It is much easier to win when you have a fleet and the other side does not.

You can retreat with a fleet.

Cornwallis' surrender at Yorktown w/o a fleet and the British in East India facing French Admiral Pierre André de Suffren de Saint Tropez are cases in point of what happened when the British faced a competent enemy fleet.

Suffren captured Trincomalee from the British in July 1782, in spite of Adm Hughes and the British fleet, and the French threat to British India was the biggest factor in getting the British Crown to the table for the Treaty of Paris in 1783.

America was an expense, if held.

India was indefinite cash flow forgone, if lost.

Louis R wrote:Of that list, only Wellesley turned out to be an especially sharp pencil - and he was pretty consistently dismissed as a "Sepoy General" right up to Salamanca & Vittoria.

And yes, they were considered second string: you accepted a commission in the Indian Army when no British Army regiment would take you. In fact, one of Auchinleck's problems was that he was IA, and sometimes had to bang heads together rather harder than was really appreciated by his British 'colleagues'.

Arthur Wellesley was always part of the British Army, not the East India Company's. It was Bonaparte that derided him as the Sepoy General and we all know how that worked out! There were plenty of second stringers in the Navy, after all after Trafalgar there was no French navy to fight.

Lois, MtB, Keith

I think it is interesting to compare the events of this story with the opening 1-2 years of the French and Indian wars (Seven Years War). Washington leads a light company towards Pittsburg, gets into a firefight with a reinforced French platoon, killing the commander. The commanders brother (IIRC) leads a reinforced company from Pittsburg and forces Washington to surrender on insulting terms after a daylong battle at Ft. Necessity. Upon hearing about what went on, London sends General Braddock with regular troops to recover the situation. Braddock dies proving he is not a better general than Washington.

I challenge anyone to support the claim that Washington was the British empire's first string in 1763.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Sharona could, it seems to me.
That would mean giving up hope of further punishing Arcana,
and of rescuing Shaylar and Jathmar.
The Arcanans could then ignore the Sharonans just as easily,
by staying on their own side of that Amazon swamp.
Where's the story in that?

HTM

n7axw wrote:
Could Sharona fort up to defend the swamp portal beyond the
possibility of losing it and just ignore Arcana from there?
I keep thinking about the logistical difficulties for
both sides and have a hard time seeing either side being
able to press an attack into the other side's home universe.

Don

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1.Is punishing Arcana a worthy goal? Presuming you could do it at all, mostly what you would accomplish is create permanent bad blood with people who will be your neighbors, abeit distant, in the future. Better to look for a way to establish good relations. Besides, virtually all the people who are the guilty parties will soon either be dead or in Sharonan custody with the exception of mul Gurthak. Punish the people actually guilty of the crimes rather than the whole Union, most of whom would be horrified of the criminal behavior of people like Neshok and Carthos and a bit more indirectly Harshu.

2.I think you could have a good story without a major war. Imagine peacemakers on both sides being hindered by people who still want to fight. Lots of room for derring do in both Sharona and Arcana. Or think of Sharona coming to grips with Chaca'a attempt to assassinate the Caliraths or the Mythalans plot uncovered and dealt with on Arcana. Or consider the good guys sending Shaylar and Jathmar home as a good will gesture to promote peace. You don't need conflict between Sharona and Arcana to have a good story. We didn't have a single major battle in RTH.

3.Sharona would be repeating Harshu's mistake by invading deep into Arcanan territory. The supply lines would be much too long and vulnerable to raiding by dragons. The countryside would be hostile and would become increasingly so as population densities increased. And although the Sharonians haven't figured it out yet, their weapons and talents would become decreasing effective as they approached Arcana. And, even without that consideration, they would be vulnerable to being cut off and surrounded by superior forces just like Harshu in Karys. In short the over extension of force all of this would represent for Sharona is a thoroughly lousy idea.

Don

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The difference between the ruling philosophies of Sharona and that of Arcana is one of the long term view. The founding emperor of Ternaithia saw the future and committed his progeny to that future over 4,000 years ago. One of his successors placed a geas in the very crown that symbolizes their rule forcing its wearer to follow that oath of office. The Sharonan crown will do whatever it takes to protect its people.

The Union of Arcana does not have that history and built in trust. That Union is only 200 years old. Ransar is a prosperous democratic republic with the attendant mercurial attention span of its electorate. Mythal is a caste based aristocracy that has xenophobia steeped in its political marrow. Andara is philosophically closest the Ternaithian ruling ethos, but the ones initially most likely to draw the ire of the Sharonan crown. That lack of history and the disparity in governing philosophies in Arcana makes them chancy partners in a long term peace as seen from the eyes of a dynasty over 4,000 years old.

If Mythal takes the lead in the war against Sharona and approaches that conflict with the moral bankruptcy they are known for, nothing short of divine intervention will persuade the Sharonan Crown that Arcana is not a bunch of bloody barbarians that pose an existential threat to any and all Sharonans. The Winged Crown will spend whatever amount of time it takes, whatever treasure is necessary and support however many soldiers the task requires to remove the threat Arcana represents to the Sharonan people. If that means taking one universe at a time for centuries into the future and building up colonies ever closer to Arcana to support the offensive, the Caliraith Dynasty will see it done.

Castenea wrote:Lois, MtB, Keith

I think it is interesting to compare the events of this story with the opening 1-2 years of the French and Indian wars (Seven Years War). Washington leads a light company towards Pittsburg, gets into a firefight with a reinforced French platoon, killing the commander. The commanders brother (IIRC) leads a reinforced company from Pittsburg and forces Washington to surrender on insulting terms after a daylong battle at Ft. Necessity. Upon hearing about what went on, London sends General Braddock with regular troops to recover the situation. Braddock dies proving he is not a better general than Washington.

I challenge anyone to support the claim that Washington was the British empire's first string in 1763.

Washington was not the British Empire's 1st string in 1763.

He was certainly America's 1st String by 1777.

And note, George the III didn't get all of this best generals in the American revolutionary war. He got the most ambitious, because many of the 1st string did not support a stronger centralized crown. Once The French came in, the best British Military leadership made itself felt...outside North America.

As the British failed, Washington learned how to

1. Survive the British Navy's mobility and firepower (See Brooklyn heights),

2. Use the militia to force the British Army to use sea lines of communications rather than the country side for food & stores, and

3. How to keep a Continental line both big enough and mobile enough to avoid main force combat if the British moved as a concentrated Army, while still strong enough to eat up British detachments if they spread out.

After those were achieved, Washington as a revolutionary played the Fabian strategy waiting for the latest British 2nd stringer to make a mistake.

Which Cornwallis did, thank you very much.

PeterZ wrote:The difference between the ruling philosophies of Sharona and that of Arcana is one of the long term view. The founding emperor of Ternaithia saw the future and committed his progeny to that future over 4,000 years ago. One of his successors placed a geas in the very crown that symbolizes their rule forcing its wearer to follow that oath of office. The Sharonan crown will do whatever it takes to protect its people.

The Union of Arcana does not have that history and built in trust. That Union is only 200 years old. Ransar is a prosperous democratic republic with the attendant mercurial attention span of its electorate. Mythal is a caste based aristocracy that has xenophobia steeped in its political marrow. Andara is philosophically closest the Ternaithian ruling ethos, but the ones initially most likely to draw the ire of the Sharonan crown. That lack of history and the disparity in governing philosophies in Arcana makes them chancy partners in a long term peace as seen from the eyes of a dynasty over 4,000 years old.

If Mythal takes the lead in the war against Sharona and approaches that conflict with the moral bankruptcy they are known for, nothing short of divine intervention will persuade the Sharonan Crown that Arcana is not a bunch of bloody barbarians that pose an existential threat to any and all Sharonans. The Winged Crown will spend whatever amount of time it takes, whatever treasure is necessary and support however many soldiers the task requires to remove the threat Arcana represents to the Sharonan people. If that means taking one universe at a time for centuries into the future and building up colonies ever closer to Arcana to support the offensive, the Caliraith Dynasty will see it done.

Having Mythal take the lead is only one possible story line just like what I've presented is only one possible story line.

I'm convinced that it is far more likely that the Mythalan plot will be exposed and mul Gurthak and the line lords discredited than that they be put in charge of anything.

Finally, Thankhar and Jasek Olderham are far closer to representing Arcana as a whole than mul Gruthak. As my mom used to say, eventually the cream rises to the top. I believe that will happen here.

As for the notion of a war that lasts hundreds of years, my first impulse is gimme a break. But again at this point it is a possible story line even if I don't think it is very likely.

Don

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