Honorverse ramblings and musings

Daryl wrote:When the four Sollie BCs were destroyed there was no Apollo switch off.

What 4 Sollie BCs? I can only think of Saltash, where Zavala shot down 4 BCs, but he was using internally fired Mk-16s.

Torch has a population of about 5 million people. That's substantially smaller than the population of New York City, and about on par with the population of the state of Minnesota. They're nowhere near ready to commit to the massive manpower requirements of a large navy and the infrastructure to support it. To combat piracy and offer security guarantees like OFS requires a large navy, but they won't have it for a long, long time. They're effectively a new colony world. Even with the support of other Haven Quadrant powers, it's going to be several generations before they can get a sizable economy, educated workforce, and industry to expand beyond a system defense force.

Duckk wrote:Torch has a population of about 5 million people. That's substantially smaller than the population of New York City, and about on par with the population of the state of Minnesota. They're nowhere near ready to commit to the massive manpower requirements of a large navy and the infrastructure to support it. To combat piracy and offer security guarantees like OFS requires a large navy, but they won't have it for a long, long time. They're effectively a new colony world. Even with the support of other Haven Quadrant powers, it's going to be several generations before they can get a sizable economy, educated workforce, and industry to expand beyond a system defense force.

If you think about the size of the current Torch navy at the end of ToF and the beginning of CoG, you can assume there are 100 people on each of their 14 Frigates, for 1400 sailors and they were planning on the 3 DDs, for probably another 6-700 men. They probably have 500-1000 people tied up with the space station, for a total of 2500-3100 people in space. While still working up, there are probably at least a few hundred on the ground in planning, logistics, training and administrative positions - for no more than 3500 people in all positions.

The Army/Marines are at most the same size, maybe smaller; I don't remember specifics, but from CoG, they don't seem to have more than 1-2 thousand troops.

All in all, that's still pretty fledgling, and a long way to go before they have any real infrastructure.

I think Torch is able to more or less waive the crewing requirements for repair & construction, which allows them to almost 'pull a Grayson' and man a much larger navy than their population can normally maintain.

Aside from the ASL frigates which were Manticoran built, and their captured PNE and SLN ships, everything new they are getting is coming from Erewhon. Any major damage will presumably also be taken care of by Erewhon, as part of the Torch/Erewhon treaties.

And since Erewhon had all the latest crew-reducing concepts Manticore designed, right up until Thunderbolt, that means they can have the same crew reduction that was built into all Saganami-C's and the Harrington/Medusa podnoughts. So as long as Erewhon builds that crew-reduction content into anything Torch buys, then Torch can sustain quite a large force. And particularly since they don't need wallers, they're going to have a really large navy in the end.

So actually, it sounds like Torch and Grayson are almost polar opposites in their fleet doctrines. Grayson is very heavy on larger units like podnoughts, CLACs and pod battlecruisers. Torch will be very heavy on tincan destroyers, light cruisers, and 'flagships of heavy cruiser to battlecruisers.

Duckk wrote:

Daryl wrote:When the four Sollie BCs were destroyed there was no Apollo switch off.

What 4 Sollie BCs? I can only think of Saltash, where Zavala shot down 4 BCs, but he was using internally fired Mk-16s.

The four destroyed by HMS Gauntlet in Service of the Sword

Weird Harold wrote:The four destroyed by HMS Gauntlet in Service of the Sword

4 Gladiator-class CAs, and was fought before Apollo.

cthia wrote:However, Torch is in the unique position of being sponsored by two polities. Three if you count Beowulf's ASL.

Beowulf doesn't have the ASL -- at least not as a sole supporter or government agency -- it has the mis-named Biological Survey Corps. The BSC's only formal connection to Torch is a contracted security force for Queen Berry. Berry's new main squeeze has personal and professional connections with the BSC, but is resigning to become Her Mousety's consort.

If you count the BSC's employment and/or collaboration with the Torch military, Torch's independence is guaranteed by four nations/empires; Manticore, Haven, The Solarian League (via Maya Sector's Governor and sector Naval forces), and Beowulf via the BSC. I'm pretty sure that Torch is also a member of the GA -- at least Queen Berry and her prime minister and secretary of war were in Manticore when it was formed and only the Anderman Empire was explicitly excluded from the GA.

As for Torch's shipbuilding capability, they have the income from the planet's pharmaceuticals for a budget, millions of former slaves and children of slaves --both as immigrants and as potential recruited immigrants-- that have training and experience in space construction, military service, ship handling (merchant marine) and just about any skill needed to jumpstart a ship-building industry. They have access to Grayson and Manticoran technical representatives to teach them Grayson style orbital construction techniques and management.

Torch may only have a resident population of five million or so, but all they have to do is put out a call for former slaves, children of slaves, or ASL supporters with space construction experience to recruit another five million or so in their budding ship construction industry and/or Navy.

Duckk wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The four destroyed by HMS Gauntlet in Service of the Sword

4 Gladiator-class CAs, and was fought before Apollo.

Still, those were the four former SLN ships referenced and the "before Apollo" was the main point in an anti-piracy context.

Weird Harold wrote:As for Torch's shipbuilding capability, they have the income from the planet's pharmaceuticals for a budget, millions of former slaves and children of slaves --both as immigrants and as potential recruited immigrants-- that have training and experience in space construction, military service, ship handling (merchant marine) and just about any skill needed to jumpstart a ship-building industry. They have access to Grayson and Manticoran technical representatives to teach them Grayson style orbital construction techniques and management.

Torch may only have a resident population of five million or so, but all they have to do is put out a call for former slaves, children of slaves, or ASL supporters with space construction experience to recruit another five million or so in their budding ship construction industry and/or Navy.

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/56/1

Still, those were the four former SLN ships referenced and the "before Apollo" was the main point in an anti-piracy context.

The point was that Daryl was referencing an event that didn't happen, thereby the statement should not be taken as a refutation of there being no capability for Apollo guided missiles to self-destruct.

IMHO the RTN will purchase or put under long-term contract a couple of service and support ships namely 1 depot and 1 repair ship. With all the overhaul and major repairs going to Erehwon for the foreseeable future. Also IIRC the ex PNE ships went Haven for repair and refit. As to the size of the Torch military IMHO it's probably in the 10-15,000 personnel range.

I did consider that Torch would be limited by available warm bodies. Though I was thinking they'd build the smaller ships below the wall, as automated as possible. I did NOT know the severity of their "warm body" count. I always imagined a steady influx of freed slaves coming in all of the time. (Exactly how many slaves throughout the galaxy could there be awaiting freedom?)

Sir Lucien Cortez' skills could be called upon. If BuPers can't do it, no one can. What about officers on half-pay? Some officers that are retired may find important slots. I wonder if Torch would be willing to give Bachfish a go? Torch could rehabilitate Bachfish in the manner as Honor rehabilitated Jaruwalski.

BuPers can do it. Also, Torch could be loaned officers from various polities.

I always thought there were many millions of slaves, alone, that need employment and a sense of purpose.

And wouldn't it be an outstanding brand of poetic justice if some of the best officers and tacticians turn out to be molded from freed slaves?