How To Convert entire populace

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:Not that I want to be a spoilsport or forum cop or anything like that but I think your discussion has kinda wandered of forum topic.

Yeah, it did, although the comparison between Safehold and the Gbaba and the 4th Imperium waiting on the Achuultani was there.

Don

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I got that but then it wandered away from there. Just as a point of personal interest, besides the apparent fact that I don't seem to be able to type "off", I personally haven't read the Dahak series.

Keith_w wrote:
I got that but then it wandered away from there. Just as a point of personal interest, besides the apparent fact that I don't seem to be able to type "off", I personally haven't read the Dahak series.

It is a lot more compressed representing an earlier period in David's writing. But it includes many of David's favorite themes like good religion v bad religion, the final book has as a major theme banning of technology by a manufactured religion. It also has some fun space drama in the second book. And of course, the boogy man of an evil alien menace bent on destroying all intelligent life apart from its own.

All in all it is a nice fast read. I think Safehold is a more mature, better developed series that shows a lot of growth in David's writing over Duhak or even the earlier Honorverse stuff. But still Duhak was ok.

Don

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The discussion so far has been very interesting. I appreciate the thoughts of all the contributors.

IMHO, there should be a firm definition of what is meant by conversion. Conversion should not be defined as a change of all Safeholdians religion to that of the Church of Charis. This is not being sought. In fact it would be categorically opposed by Maikel Staynair and the inner and outer circle of the Brethren of Saint Zherneau.

What is needed by Charis and Niume (in all incarnations) is simple. No organization should have the power to control the behavior or beliefs of all the people. Obviously, a given religion has the power to define its belief system. But, it should not have the power to impose that system on those who do not share it. This is the definition of conversion that I think best applies.

Following the defeat of the Group of Four and the Temple, there is likely to be multiple splits in the religious beliefs of the populous. Many, probably most, will still believe in the proscriptions against technology. Some will probably turn to a strict adherence to the original interpretations of the proscriptions. These may form communities, perhaps even states that bar the use of any proscribed tech in their area. With the technology thus allowed along with the high yield plants that Shan-wei left Safehold, they should have comfortable lives at least comparable to the PA Amish. Like the Amish, their long term problem will be the need for more land for their expanding population.

Other groups will form with a range of beliefs on technology all the way to that of Charis. National churches may form, but this could be hindered by the Church of God’s policy of limiting the number of native priests in mainland countries.

In reaction to the Temple’s excesses, a strong anticlerical, perhaps anti religious movement might evolve. This happened in France after the Revolution. As the Church is mainly identified with the nobility in Harchong, this might occur there. A radical regime might evolve and be the source of the next major war on Safehold. This antireligious movement might be especially radical if it takes power after the Reveal of the true history of Safehold.

The fundamentalist anti-tech forces might become extremely militant. They might not see Langhorne as an Archangel anymore, but as a fallen Prophet. His anti-tech dogma might be seen as inspired by God. But Langhorne and his cohorts may be seen failing due to the taint of the technology they used. The policy of these forces might range from separation, to peaceful protest, to terrorism. A group might resort to holy war. They could use banned tech claiming that it would be eventually destroyed.

The likely multiplicity of belief systems on Safehold, which may explode exponentially after the Reveal, poses problems for fulfilling Niume’s goals. If the Gbaba are not expanding their domain, a low energy profile planet should be safe from them. Ordinary people can live long comfortable lives without space travel and the threat of war and possible extinction.

If, as I believe, the Gaba are expanding their territory, the question is how fast. With only the limited data on the Terran Federation’s expansion, you can derive a linear formula that predicts the Gbaba will not show up for almost 100 million years. On the other hand, if you use an exponential growth formula (like a species without competition expanding to its resource limits) the Gbaba could dominate the local group of galaxies. With the linear expansion is there really a need to go to space? With the exponential model, going to space would be suicide. Unless, the true expansion rate is known, future Safehold generations may decide going to space is not worth it. Arguments for going to space are of course possible. But, in the absence of facts they are not necessarily compelling.

Laenole
"All that glitters is not gold"

n7axw wrote:

Keith_w wrote:
I got that but then it wandered away from there. Just as a point of personal interest, besides the apparent fact that I don't seem to be able to type "off", I personally haven't read the Dahak series.

It is a lot more compressed representing an earlier period in David's writing. But it includes many of David's favorite themes like good religion v bad religion, the final book has as a major theme banning of technology by a manufactured religion. It also has some fun space drama in the second book. And of course, the boogy man of an evil alien menace bent on destroying all intelligent life apart from its own.

All in all it is a nice fast read. I think Safehold is a more mature, better developed series that shows a lot of growth in David's writing over Duhak or even the earlier Honorverse stuff. But still Duhak was ok.

Don

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agreed that a lot of his later stuff is more mature but there is something to be said for his early works.

I know when introducing new people to his works I will start them with path of the fury (original version not the expanded one) or mutineers moon.

if these were well received then i'll start then on honourverse and only when honourverse is finished (well as finished as it ever is) start safehold.

sometimes i will throw in the bolo or starfire or prince roger books before safehold but more often thy are used to gently bring folks back to the world after yet another RFC ending that leaves more questions then answers

Dauntless wrote:
agreed that a lot of his later stuff is more mature but there is something to be said for his early works.

I know when introducing new people to his works I will start them with path of the fury (original version not the expanded one) or mutineers moon.

if these were well received then i'll start then on honourverse and only when honourverse is finished (well as finished as it ever is) start safehold.

sometimes i will throw in the bolo or starfire or prince roger books before safehold but more often thy are used to gently bring folks back to the world after yet another RFC ending that leaves more questions then answers

Most of if the earlier stuff is lighter and faster to read. No criticism of that.

RFC isn't much into endings, is he? Closest I can think of to having an actual ending is Apocalypse Troll.

Don

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Laenole wrote:The discussion so far has been very interesting. I appreciate the thoughts of all the contributors.

IMHO, there should be a firm definition of what is meant by conversion. Conversion should not be defined as a change of all Safeholdians religion to that of the Church of Charis. This is not being sought. In fact it would be categorically opposed by Maikel Staynair and the inner and outer circle of the Brethren of Saint Zherneau.

What is needed by Charis and Niume (in all incarnations) is simple. No organization should have the power to control the behavior or beliefs of all the people. Obviously, a given religion has the power to define its belief system. But, it should not have the power to impose that system on those who do not share it. This is the definition of conversion that I think best applies.

Following the defeat of the Group of Four and the Temple, there is likely to be multiple splits in the religious beliefs of the populous. Many, probably most, will still believe in the proscriptions against technology. Some will probably turn to a strict adherence to the original interpretations of the proscriptions. These may form communities, perhaps even states that bar the use of any proscribed tech in their area. With the technology thus allowed along with the high yield plants that Shan-wei left Safehold, they should have comfortable lives at least comparable to the PA Amish. Like the Amish, their long term problem will be the need for more land for their expanding population.

Other groups will form with a range of beliefs on technology all the way to that of Charis. National churches may form, but this could be hindered by the Church of God’s policy of limiting the number of native priests in mainland countries.

In reaction to the Temple’s excesses, a strong anticlerical, perhaps anti religious movement might evolve. This happened in France after the Revolution. As the Church is mainly identified with the nobility in Harchong, this might occur there. A radical regime might evolve and be the source of the next major war on Safehold. This antireligious movement might be especially radical if it takes power after the Reveal of the true history of Safehold.

The fundamentalist anti-tech forces might become extremely militant. They might not see Langhorne as an Archangel anymore, but as a fallen Prophet. His anti-tech dogma might be seen as inspired by God. But Langhorne and his cohorts may be seen failing due to the taint of the technology they used. The policy of these forces might range from separation, to peaceful protest, to terrorism. A group might resort to holy war. They could use banned tech claiming that it would be eventually destroyed.

The likely multiplicity of belief systems on Safehold, which may explode exponentially after the Reveal, poses problems for fulfilling Niume’s goals. If the Gbaba are not expanding their domain, a low energy profile planet should be safe from them. Ordinary people can live long comfortable lives without space travel and the threat of war and possible extinction.

If, as I believe, the Gaba are expanding their territory, the question is how fast. With only the limited data on the Terran Federation’s expansion, you can derive a linear formula that predicts the Gbaba will not show up for almost 100 million years. On the other hand, if you use an exponential growth formula (like a species without competition expanding to its resource limits) the Gbaba could dominate the local group of galaxies. With the linear expansion is there really a need to go to space? With the exponential model, going to space would be suicide. Unless, the true expansion rate is known, future Safehold generations may decide going to space is not worth it. Arguments for going to space are of course possible. But, in the absence of facts they are not necessarily compelling.

Laenole
"All that glitters is not gold"

Religious pluralism is inevitable once the enforced conformity is gone. When have a group of humans ever completely agreed on anything, let alone God?

What hints we have from RFC imply that the Gbaba are defending their own turf rather than being expansionist...for what it'a worth.

Don

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n7axw wrote:

Dauntless wrote:RFC isn't much into endings, is he? Closest I can think of to having an actual ending is Apocalypse Troll.

Don-

There have been hints or at least rumors of a sequel or continuation of the Apocalypse Troll.

Gunny wrote:
There have been hints or at least rumors of a sequel or continuation of the Apocalypse Troll.

Last thing David néeds is a new project...

Don

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RFC certainly does not need another project. at least not until all of the current honor, safehold and Bahzell stuff is complete.

after that? well we shall see.

I have to admit, a sequel or at least a novella covering the second (much shorter) Human-Kanga war would be nice. If only to check in with earth's new Adam and Eve, though watching the butt kicking off the kangas would be most satisfying, even if it'll be all too close to war porn.

in the same vein seeing Colin and Jillantheth or their other kids go deal with the ackulatni master computer would also be nice

Dauntless wrote:RFC certainly does not need another project. at least not until all of the current honor, safehold and Bahzell stuff is complete.

after that? well we shall see.

I have to admit, a sequel or at least a novella covering the second (much shorter) Human-Kanga war would be nice. If only to check in with earth's new Adam and Eve, though watching the butt kicking off the kangas would be most satisfying, even if it'll be all too close to war porn.

in the same vein seeing Colin and Jillantheth or their other kids go deal with the ackulatni master computer would also be nice

Or watching Roger properly deal with Adoula after the violence perpetrated on his Empress mother...

That is what I say...so many projects!

Don

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