Honorverse ramblings and musings

Corvettes would have more endurance than LACs. Like a coast guard cutter versus a PT boat.

Don't even think "the fickle female in Honor".

When the four Sollie BCs were destroyed there was no Apollo switch off.

Somtaaw wrote:Corvette's built and armed on the same general lines as Manticoran LAC's might be pretty scary customers, for a purely sublight 'customs and security' ship.


Should be just big enough you can cram upto two of the Shrike grasers, or just one and give it near Ferret or Katana levels of missiles to boot.

Would be slightly less maneuverable, but the possible trade offs on crew size for inspections and armaments, might make them better than 'mere' pinnaces. Even a Q-ship's gonna be in trouble if two or more Shrike-style corvette's approach with the generic "you have entered X space, heave to and prepare for inspection". You might nail one, but the other is going to absolutely savage you in return. Compared to two pinnaces with their itty bitty 2cm lasers versus the 1.5m graser of a Shrike. [Or at least I think Shrike's pack a 1.5m graser anyways]

Plus side:
+ much heavier armaments than mere LAC's, and depending on technology used (Grand Alliance), anything smaller than a light cruiser's may find itself undermatched
+ more crew for inspections and/or hard boarding parties, doubles for search & rescue


Cons:
- less agile than a LAC, and considerably less than a Katana
- not much room to be better armored than a LAC, so you're trading higher chance to be hit for a larger arsenel to dish it out
- speed is going to be very similar to LACs


I'm sure there's more either way, but I'll let others hop in and run with the idea of Grand Alliance "super corvette" idea, based off the same Ghost Rider-derived improvements that lead to the super-LAC programs.

The big con against modern (1900) corvettes is they have everything a frigate or destroyer would have - minus a hyperdrive and alpha nodes, and have the speed issue of a classic LAC, all for ~75% the cost of a Destroyer. Using 1920s Manty tech would delete the LAC speed issue - but you could still build a comparable hyper capable unit for just a few dollars more.

T. Pope said that the Cimeterres @25-30Ktons kinda blur the Corvette line, but you are essentially getting the same issue - for a few dollars more you could get a frigate or a DD with much more capability.

Theemile wrote:The big con against modern (1900) corvettes is they have everything a frigate or destroyer would have - minus a hyperdrive and alpha nodes, and have the speed issue of a classic LAC, all for ~75% the cost of a Destroyer. Using 1920s Manty tech would delete the LAC speed issue - but you could still build a comparable hyper capable unit for just a few dollars more.

T. Pope said that the Cimeterres @25-30Ktons kinda blur the Corvette line, but you are essentially getting the same issue - for a few dollars more you could get a frigate or a DD with much more capability.

Actually some of the systems may want corvettes as method of building up their defense with out worrying the neighbors too much. If they do not have a hyperdrive they can not be used easily against the neighbors after all.

cthia wrote:DONG! ong ong ong! Amateur hour again.

What exactly makes a Corvette more maneuverable?

More maneuverable than what?

In general, smaller ships have higher acceleration curves and are more maneuverable than larger ships. At least in part because they have higher acceleration curves.

If the Silesia experience is any indicator, systems which have deals with pirates will not object to warships of various Star Nations with merchant marine fleets from sending along escorts when piracy starts happening in an area. Whey would they, they are law abideing and welcome any protection of trade calling on their system. Of course they will pass along any intelegence to their partners to help them avoid said escorts or patrols.

If some system is getting huffy about a Beowulf DD escorting two or three freights to System X, the Beowulf commander could just pull up outside the hyper limit , squawk transponders and say essentially
"Hi, I'm Commander Smith of BSDF. There have been incedents of piracy in this area. We know you don't want our warships in your system but we are providing escort protection to the three ships which just entered your hyperlimit on regularly scheduled trade stops. If you insist on not allowing port-call privileges to this ship or insist it remain outside the hyper limit, we will do so. That would appear to be short-sighted and just plain rude but it's your system. We will wait here for the X days of the commercial call and pick up our charges when they exist the system. We hope you don't mind, but we will use this time to run drills. If we should encounter ships lurking about outside the hyperlimit we shall investigate and take such action seems prudent. If we should discover any lurking inside your hyperlimit you will be notified just after we have take up positions relative to that location to be able to intercept such a ship when it attempts to flee from your own SDF units and you can deal with it alone or request assistance. We would, of course, expect a detailed expliatation of whatever your find of such a lurking vessel. Be advised that, should any mishap or attack happen involving our charges within your system, we will invoke the policy of "hot pursuit" and take such action as is deemed prudent to secure the safety of our charges.
Have a nice day.

Said BSDF unit would make a reasonable effort to scan the system and poke into stuff and generaly get a read on what is and isn't happening in there, perhaps pushing RDs in to get a better look, probably picking them up at the expected point where the convoy ships would be leaving the system. Old school stuff.

cthia wrote:I suspect that the "situation" itself will resolve that conflict, i.e., if the piracy problem turns the shade of ugly that I suspect it will, certain polities that don't allow private warships will be singing a different tune. Or their ability to import and export will fizzle.

It's really simple, the GA has a responsibility to its own carrying trade. If it cannot do so, their commerce will be warned off from those areas -- akin to how American tourists are warned off from travel to certain trouble spots (out of American influence) today. Signatories of the Cherwell Convention cannot operate above the law -- however, if certain difficult systems with a "no fly zone" are suspected of harboring pirates, (skirting the ascription to a theory that that would be the case), I'm sure they will be dealt with.

At the fall of the League, we fail to question what will happen to League commerce -- the freighters currently carrying League trade. Will the dominant Manticoran trade be stepped up even further? Limiting a system's trade options.

All which brings me full circle to my question of "Isn't it time that a new Cherwell Convention be recodified?" Minus the corrupt League, polities may be more agreeable.

munroburton wrote:I don't understand what you think the problems with Cherwell are. IMO, the main three - firstly, not everyone has signed up to it. Secondly, of those who have, not all provisions and clauses were agreed to. Thirdly, actual enforcement is spotty. None of those issues are solved by starting over and all would be aggravated.

And finally, it applies to slavery. Not piracy. The honorverse has clearly agreed, a long time ago, upon the legal niceties of what constitutes piracy and what star nations are allowed or required to do about it.

Which begs for and suggests the inevitable tendency towards exploiting loopholes, as slavers once did by "flushing cargo."

wiki wrote:All signatories endorsed the equation of slavery with piracy, and agreed that the naval forces of any signatory had the right to stop, search and confiscate merchant vessels transporting slaves while sailing under the protection of their flags, and, more importantly, that they had the right to try the crews of those confiscated vessels for piracy, which was punishable by death in many star nations.

Indeed, you listed the three main problems. But they are not big problems, they are huge. First off, why hasn't everyone signed off on it? Or more importantly, why would any system not wish to sign off on it? Do they not care about their carrying trade and the health of their imports and exports? Or is there another more sinister, underlying reason? Or is it that they don't worry about piracy and if so, why do they not worry about piracy? Is it because "Piracy R Us?" It is time the real players seriously consider and effectively deal with these questions.

In the days of League rule, everyone would have had option of a scapegoat of an excuse for not wishing to sign off on a treaty that the corrupt League had anything to do with. For fear of signing on to deputize and give a rabid dog the teeth to legally bite you in the ass. And for systems that truly were on the up and up, you couldn't blame them.

In an era of "Post League rule," that worry would no longer exist. So what possible reason would remain for someone not to wish to sign off on a recodified treaty -- essentially announcing to pirates "PFZ - Protected by GACCS?" (Piracy Free Zone - Grand Alliance of Cherwell Convention Signatories) -- An Honorverse brand of "Chamber of Commerce."


I can't be as quick to agree that "Post League" won't find a general softening of sentiment towards the treaty - minus the threat of intent being tainted by League corruption.

GACCS could stipulate that signatories will band together and refuse to trade with non members. Signatories have a moral responsibility to protect its carrying trade and citizens. Or you'll have incidents like the Captain of the freighter in Stacey Hauptman's family (?) being killed delivering goods. It's time to step it up with the Cherwell Convention, or it isn't worth the paper its signed on.

I would imagine that the "Equipment Clause" alone, would have bugged the hell out of many would be signatories and I cannot say that I blame them -- or that at least I understand their concern. "Circumstantial Evidence." Certainly, there will be cases where an innocent man or men will be put to death. Where there's smoke, there isn't always fire.

On the flip-side of that, I cannot find fault with the strict stance taken by signatories -- in view of the fact that "cargo" were being flushed out of the airlocks by savvy slavers exploiting loopholes. That is why I'm proposing a recodified treaty effectively addressing past concerns that may have already been naturally dealt with (fallen League), and a plan of closing possible loopholes.

And there should be "record of enforcement" clauses. Eliminating blinds and smokescreens. There should be a simple brand of a "zero-tolerance" policy. Convicted just once committing piracy -- demands automatic execution. The stiffest penalties (and the most effective) are only the ones that actually create stiffs.

My father had his share of one-liners. Situations frequently recall upon the many and the one, as now...

Either stand up and make the big call or resign to call the big make. Because you've been made when you've been had.

munroburton wrote:And finally, it applies to slavery. Not piracy. The honorverse has clearly agreed, a long time ago, upon the legal niceties of what constitutes piracy and what star nations are allowed or required to do about it.

With the fall of the League, I suspect that piracy is going to get a face-lift. There will exist far too many target rich environments and the lure of "easy" money will be impossible to resist for unsavory elements. What will happen, I suspect, is that the entire "business" of piracy will become a more intelligently operated enterprise exploiting aforementioned loopholes, backed by never before existing "sponsors."

What will come to pass when this happens on a large scale -- which I fear will, post League...

The Silesian Confederate Navy (SCN) was the armed space force of the Silesian Confederacy.

Internal affairs of the Confederacy caused the main duty of the SCN to be the suppression of secessionist movements. Therefore, the means to cope with the extensive piracy in the area were very limited. Corrupt Silesian politicians were also notorious for handing over SCN ships to pirates. All these factors, as well as poor quality of both ships and personnel, made the Confederate Navy a second-rate fleet at the turn of the 20th Century PD.

What happens when the line between pirates, privateers and commerce raiders begin to blur? A time I fear is sitting just outside the hyper limit, preparing for a crash (Fall of the League) translation.

In ending, not failing to include a reminder of my fears of the "legality" of the treaty possibly being challenged in the absence of its main signatory -- regardless of the fact that that signatory was just a window dressing.

Late edit:
Recodified to explicitly include the war on piracy.

Theemile wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Corvette's built and armed on the same general lines as Manticoran LAC's might be pretty scary customers, for a purely sublight 'customs and security' ship.


Should be just big enough you can cram upto two of the Shrike grasers, or just one and give it near Ferret or Katana levels of missiles to boot.

Would be slightly less maneuverable, but the possible trade offs on crew size for inspections and armaments, might make them better than 'mere' pinnaces. Even a Q-ship's gonna be in trouble if two or more Shrike-style corvette's approach with the generic "you have entered X space, heave to and prepare for inspection". You might nail one, but the other is going to absolutely savage you in return. Compared to two pinnaces with their itty bitty 2cm lasers versus the 1.5m graser of a Shrike. [Or at least I think Shrike's pack a 1.5m graser anyways]

Plus side:
+ much heavier armaments than mere LAC's, and depending on technology used (Grand Alliance), anything smaller than a light cruiser's may find itself undermatched
+ more crew for inspections and/or hard boarding parties, doubles for search & rescue


Cons:
- less agile than a LAC, and considerably less than a Katana
- not much room to be better armored than a LAC, so you're trading higher chance to be hit for a larger arsenel to dish it out
- speed is going to be very similar to LACs


I'm sure there's more either way, but I'll let others hop in and run with the idea of Grand Alliance "super corvette" idea, based off the same Ghost Rider-derived improvements that lead to the super-LAC programs.

The big con against modern (1900) corvettes is they have everything a frigate or destroyer would have - minus a hyperdrive and alpha nodes, and have the speed issue of a classic LAC, all for ~75% the cost of a Destroyer. Using 1920s Manty tech would delete the LAC speed issue - but you could still build a comparable hyper capable unit for just a few dollars more.

T. Pope said that the Cimeterres @25-30Ktons kinda blur the Corvette line, but you are essentially getting the same issue - for a few dollars more you could get a frigate or a DD with much more capability.

One more point while this is near the top of the thread - Corvettes can also be considered HACs (Heavy Attack Craft). And as can be found in the pearls, No major military will build HACs. Small players may build HACs, but no major players will according to David.

Theemile wrote:One more point while this is near the top of the thread - Corvettes can also be considered HACs (Heavy Attack Craft). And as can be found in the pearls, No major military will build HACs. Small players may build HACs, but no major players will according to David.

I'd think they would only be HAC's if built using any of the Grand Alliance levels of technology. Otherwise, like you observed, they'd have very sluggish acceleration and armaments would likely still be broadside heavy and the single-shot box launchers of old-style LACs.

I previously would have thought Torch might have corvette's to serve as system defense craft (that double as trainers) for their frigates, but they got nixed when they scooped the Solarian battlecruisers and started planning for more. Aside from Torch, I can't imagine anyone that has GA-levels of technology that might build corvette/HAC for system-defense instead of their existing LAC's.

Although, on balance, if they start meeting Lenny Det's, the bump in firepower for little-to-no crew increase over a Shrike, the GA may still start building them. All depends how, and where the battles are conducted, and whether the MAlign can get away with sending Lenny Det's on what amounts to Eighth Fleet conducting Sanskrit & Cutworm. We're currently theorizing Lenny Dets are at least as large as SD's, but have the firepower of heavy forts, which is going to be hard for even Shrike's to take on with a single graser each. A HAC version of the Shrike would mount two or three of the same grasers, identical crew size, and at least double the EW specs to allow it to get even closer before the LAC's get detected.

================TORCH=========================

A while back, I toyed with creating a thread specifically enquiring about the potential ability of Torch to be taught and to learn to build its own ships. I'm assuming that Torch effects the repair and maintenanace of its present order of battle?

It is great that the Anti-Slavery League (ASL) was willing to give Torch a few ships. And even Manticore. Which leads me to wonder if some version of the old adage of "teaching a man to fish" should be applied.

Torch is in a very interesting position. They are sponsored by both Manticore and Haven. And in some respects, Beowulf. Certainly before Manticore's own infrastructure was seriously attacked, might it have been prudent to provide the infrastructure and teach Torch to build its own ships? The TNS has a good start.

I'm specifically borrowing from the precedent and example set by Manticore with the convoy of aid sent to Grayson. Of course, that was a bribe (lol) to grease the wheels of decision. And Grayson had the potential ability to repay the extended loans.

However, Torch is in the unique position of being sponsored by two polities. Three if you count Beowulf's ASL. What would it take to provide Torch with its own ability to build ships? To kickstart its ship building infrastructure?

What does Torch have in the way of resources to eventually become economically viable?

Torch's star geography has it encompassing the Congo System which lies between Erewhon, the League and Haven and has a proximity to a wormhole junction believed to have no less than three termini. Could Torch become some sort of "hub" for various enterprises directly related to this wormhole?

Could, should, Torch become some specialized version of what Office of Frontier Security (OFS) should have been all along? As a logical progression of Beowulf's Anti-Slavery League (ASL).

Has the time come for an organized, galaxy wide multi-polity sponsored APL (Anti-Piracy League)? Torch has some specialized talents, much of which are well known, respected and even feared throughout the galaxy.

Could Torch take up the gauntlet to become the new face against slavery and piracy. I would imagine that escaped and freed slaves have as much disdain for piracy as slavery, being that the line of distinction was often blurred in their experience.

Captured pirates are currently entered into a new database. This database could be automatically forwarded to any new entity taking up the cause.

Just a rampant thought invading my brain that I thought I'd hatch.

cthia wrote:================TORCH=========================

A while back, I toyed with creating a thread specifically enquiring about the potential ability of Torch to be taught and to learn to build its own ships. I'm assuming that Torch effects the repair and maintenanace of its present order of battle?

It is great that the Anti-Slavery League (ASL) was willing to give Torch a few ships. And even Manticore. Which leads me to wonder if some version of the old adage of "teaching a man to fish" should be applied.

Torch is in a very interesting position. They are sponsored by both Manticore and Haven. And in some respects, Beowulf. Certainly before Manticore's own infrastructure was seriously attacked, might it have been prudent to provide the infrastructure and teach Torch to build its own ships? The TNS has a good start.

I'm specifically borrowing from the precedent and example set by Manticore with the convoy of aid sent to Grayson. Of course, that was a bribe (lol) to grease the wheels of decision. And Grayson had the potential ability to repay the extended loans.

Grayson had a low-tech but massive orbital industry complex, and experience building and maintaining their own warships. In particular, the manpower-intensive systems they had, while terribly inefficient, did mean that they had a huge base of personnel that "only" needed new tools and updated training before becoming a shipbuilding dynamo.

Torch had barely any industry to speak of before the revolution. It certainly wasn't building or maintaining anything more than its own orbital station - and the people who did that weren't the slaves so they're dead or gone. Some of Torch's immigrants may be former slaves who've picked up space industry skills, and some may be among labor lines who had some relevant training already. But those are going to be a tiny minority, like Torch's naval crews. So they're starting from nothing, and the patronage of the ASL, Manticore, Haven, Erewhon, and Maya all mean that building up their ship construction capability is far down the list of priorities.

It's not that it would not be nice or welcome - don't get me wrong. It's that it's not necessary and so much else is: housing, education, public health, re-discovering Torch's natural resources, creating the industries for pharmaceutical export, training that navy, building the army, etc. If the choice is between, say, getting shipyards up and rolling in the next four years - for ships they may not be able to crew or afford - and getting the clinics available for universal prolong, the shipyard booster should be kicked a long time in a dark alley.

However, Torch is in the unique position of being sponsored by two polities. Three if you count Beowulf's ASL. What would it take to provide Torch with its own ability to build ships? To kickstart its ship building infrastructure?

What does Torch have in the way of resources to eventually become economically viable?

It's economically viable now. It's got a lot of plants for pharmaceutical development. What and how remain to be fully explored. But the development of that has very nearly nothing to do with shipbuilding or other orbital works - very little development of its space industry will flow from the development of Torch's wealth in the near or medium term.

The wormhole is currently useless. It looks like the theoretical natural ship-eater. In fact, it's an artificial ship-eater, but that is exactly as bad for any economic use of it. Once it's cleared out - assuming, say, that Torch can annex the Twins and Felix - they'd command a wormhole nexus that would replicate a portion of the use of Erewhon's and Manticore's - or maybe a little more, depending on where the unknown termini land. That would be a nice boost, and it would have some effect encouraging space industries to support it, but even then it looks like it would more or less just allow some freight a slightly different pattern of movement as an alternative to others of similar length.