Honorverse ramblings and musings

Brigade XO wrote:Putting any Q-ship into a wall with SDs would be "counter-indicated' unless you were thinking of using it as a missile sponge for a few minutes during the fighting. Not exactly an optimal use of the type

Besides, every Q-ship makes major sacrifices to look like a normal ship - Even the Sirius, which was the largest, purpose built q-ship we know of, made major sacrifices to be a Q-ship. Essentially, it was a BC in a SD sized shell, with larger mags, BC/BB defenses and armor, and SD speed.

As Brigade XO pointed out, once 1 was used as a warship, the jig would be up and everybody with a subscription to "Modern Warship" would know that an Astra freighter is not to be ignored as a simple freighter, making it's freighter mask useless. And as a warship, other BCs will simply run away from it, and SDs will tear it to pieces with impunity.

A Q ship's sole purpose and best armor is to act like an innocent freighter - until it suddenly, violently pounces on it's prey. Using it any other way is a waste.

The only reason the PRN built the Sirius and the Trumbull class before it was to get control of a 3rd rate system without the system knowing it was being taken over. The Freighters sit idly in orbit and a distraction out system pulls the (small) defensive forces out to deal with the issue. Once the defense forces are too far out of place to react, the Freighter transforms into the Q-ship and orders the planet's surrender because they control the orbitals - a victory with few or no shots fired.

Duckk wrote:Why would anyone build a meaningful numbers of a capital ship that's not really a capital ship, except just maybe when in case of emergency? Who needs that many large warships masquerading as merchant ships? Even the Peeps, the most prolific practitioners of the Q-ship built only a handful to support their surprise attack/first strike doctrine.

This is fundamentally a backwards way of fleet construction. One does not come up with ships, then find them an operational role. Chris Weuve's section in House of Steel covers how one would come up with a fleet force mix, and come up with mission requirements that might prompt the design of new ships. The question you should be asking is what need does the Q-ship fulfill in the current operational environment above and beyond the existing fleet mix? Frankly, I don't see it. You say that "piracy suppression is all that is left". Why then would they be building massive 4, 5, 6 million ton capital ships to cover a need that has well been covered by sub-megaton combatants for years? Simply mass producing Saganami-Cs (or its successor) would provide substantially more protection than tying up the equivalent amount of funds, manpower, and resources in larger but less numerous Q-ships. You don't need something that is effectively a battleship or dreadnought for the mission role you are envisioning.

Except that Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants look like Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants.

I was under the impression, do forgive me if I'm in error, that Q-ships are effective against piracy because they are essentially "bait ships" -- Trojan horse-power.

Why would anyone build a meaningful numbers of a capital ship that's not really a capital ship, except just maybe when in case of emergency?

My intent was to build them as actual capital ships masquerading as freighters. And not used only in an emergency, but could be used incase of an emergency. A Q-ship that is effectively a bonafide ship of the wall in every respect. Built even tougher with only a sacrifice in missile throw weight and acceleration -- augmented by an Apollo loadout meant to take no prisoners.

This is fundamentally a backwards way of fleet construction. One does not come up with ships, then find them an operational role.

I was under the impression that Q-ships already had an operational role, and is why they were built -- warship power, Trojanized as a freighter.

Why then would they be building massive 4, 5, 6 million ton capital ships to cover a need that has well been covered by sub-megaton combatants for years? Simply mass producing Saganami-Cs (or its successor) would provide substantially more protection than tying up the equivalent amount of funds, manpower, and resources in larger but less numerous Q-ships. You don't need something that is effectively a battleship or dreadnought for the mission role you are envisioning.

Ah, there's the misunderstanding. The mission role I am envisioning is not mainly one of "protection." I'm envisioning a much more active and agressive policy of complete piracy eradication. No more yielding the initiative to pirates. In time of peace, monies and energies can now be funneled into the serious suppression of this ugly inhumane and profitable profession with current technologies with the same energy and purpose given to any current war. Why just sit around waiting for these animals to attack with the mindset of "protection?" Draw them out and destroy.

I'm really thinking that when the League falls, wanton chaos will ensue for a time. The GA are going to have to assume a more aggressive posture -- especially since they will garner the major percentage of carrying trade. A mindset of "protection" instead of eradication isn't going to work for the GA in the "absence of a police state" -- which will certainly follow closely on the heels of a fallen League.

I always got the impression that every Q-ship was a rushed necessity. I'm talking about the next generation of purpose built Q-ships to fill a need of "bait and kill." Sure, these Trojan horses would be out of the bag quickly. But if enough of them are built and dispersed, then either pirates will go into another business or risk it. Either way a win-win for the GA and would be victims.

The present policy of protection only isn't going to continue to work for the GA. They're going to have to adopt a more aggressive policy. The Q-ship is essential for drawing them out.

My humble thoughts, such as they are anyways.

cthia wrote:Except that Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants look like Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants.

I was under the impression, do forgive me if I'm in error, that Q-ships are effective against piracy because they are essentially "bait ships" -- Trojan horse-power.

Destroyers and Cruisers have long been able to fool pirates into thinking them freighters. You really only need Q-ships if you're in a situation where the enemy could disengage successfully after getting visual eyes on the target.

Because all the really long ranged sensors (mostly grav sensors, but to a lesser extent radar) can be fairly easily fooled by ECM. That's why DDs and CLs were fairly successfully at piracy suppression in Silesia.


The Peeps needed actual Q-ships because they were slipping them into planetary orbit before an invasion by posing as merchant traffic. So they had to remain undetected after achieving parking orbit (wedge down) or while passing near other traffic or traffic control stations / craft. Places where there might be expected to be relatively close range visual inspection of the ship's exterior. (Though they wouldn't survive any kind of customs inspection).

The Manties were dealing with a different threat when they modified freighters into the Wayfairer-class. But they were desiged to be slipped into military resupply convoys as a final layer of protection from commerce raiding. As such they needed to remain undetected even after the convoy's normal military escorts were drawn off or engaged. So they had to be undetected in an environment where quite good long ranged (for the time) recon drones might penetrate the convoy formation - again needing to hide from visual inspection of the exterior.


You don't need any of that against pirates - they basically never mount recon drones, and even if they did your missile reach and accel advantage probably let you run them down even if they do make you as a warship. And even if you fail at that they still had to expend an expensive recon drone for no profit. Do that a couple of times and they'll be out of business.

HMAMC Wayfarer is a classic Q-ship, a eggshell with a sledgehammer. She had SD grade weapons but little if any ability to take punishment. The PNS Sirius was also a Q-ship but was more of a covert action ship, she was built with CA/BC grade weapons on a large freighter hull.

In WW2 the British used merchant cruisers as additional convoy protection. Not really Q ships, but a deterrent. German convoy raiders were like pirates, at the end of a tenuous supply line and any damage could degrade their mission. The captain of the Jervis Bay won a VC defending his convoy.

cthia wrote:Except that Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants look like Saganami Cs and sub-megaton combatants.

I was under the impression, do forgive me if I'm in error, that Q-ships are effective against piracy because they are essentially "bait ships" -- Trojan horse-power.

As mentioned by Jonathan_S, you don't need a Q-ship for this at all. We've seen multiple instances of warships faking being a merchant vessel. The only use for looking like a freighter is if you planned to pull off a visual-range deception, which is wholly unnecessary for the mission as described.

My intent was to build them as actual capital ships masquerading as freighters. And not used only in an emergency, but could be used incase of an emergency. A Q-ship that is effectively a bonafide ship of the wall in every respect. Built even tougher with only a sacrifice in missile throw weight and acceleration -- augmented by an Apollo loadout meant to take no prisoners.

Apollo is gross overkill for the mission. Your garden variety pirate has no capability to stand up to even a Mk-14 equipped cruiser like the Avalon and Saganami-B, let alone the Mk-16 armed ships Manticore has today. Again, you're letting the ship you want define the mission, not the other way around.

Furthermore, every one of these 8 or 9 million sized Q-ships you're building is a SD you're not. No navy is going to accept such inefficient combat hullform which is effectively the same cost as the warship. And if you want to build a smaller, ~5 million ton Q-ship, then you've just made a battleship, which has no business being in fleet combat.

I was under the impression that Q-ships already had an operational role, and is why they were built -- warship power, Trojanized as a freighter.

That role as seen in text is so tiny niche as to be irrelevant in fleet procurement. The Peeps never considered them warships, but special ops platforms. The RMN never considered them anything more than stopgaps to fill the role of fleet train escort. The fact that their civilian conversions performed well in Silesia was happy coincidence. The scale of deployment you're talking about would be a massive investment in resources that would displace a substantial amount of regular construction.

Ah, there's the misunderstanding. The mission role I am envisioning is not mainly one of "protection." I'm envisioning a much more active and agressive policy of complete piracy eradication. No more yielding the initiative to pirates. In time of peace, monies and energies can now be funneled into the serious suppression of this ugly inhumane and profitable profession with current technologies with the same energy and purpose given to any current war. Why just sit around waiting for these animals to attack with the mindset of "protection?" Draw them out and destroy.

I'm really thinking that when the League falls, wanton chaos will ensue for a time. The GA are going to have to assume a more aggressive posture -- especially since they will garner the major percentage of carrying trade. A mindset of "protection" instead of eradication isn't going to work for the GA in the "absence of a police state" -- which will certainly follow closely on the heels of a fallen League.

I always got the impression that every Q-ship was a rushed necessity. I'm talking about the next generation of purpose built Q-ships to fill a need of "bait and kill." Sure, these Trojan horses would be out of the bag quickly. But if enough of them are built and dispersed, then either pirates will go into another business or risk it. Either way a win-win for the GA and would be victims.

The present policy of protection only isn't going to continue to work for the GA. They're going to have to adopt a more aggressive policy. The Q-ship is essential for drawing them out.

My humble thoughts, such as they are anyways.

None of this requires a ship that's pretending to be something it's not, each of which has a substantial price tag associated with it. You're talking about building battleship sized platforms at the very minimum. Just how many do you think the Alliance is willing to build? To cover the volume of space for widespread piracy operations, you're looking at scores of ships. That's a whole navy's worth of capital ships. No one is going to be tying up what is effectively an entire fleet of capital ships on piracy operations. That's like parking the entire US Pacific Fleet off the coast of Somalia. That's a preposterous amount of firepower for fly swatting, which is why antipiracy patrols have always been performed by destroyers and cruisers. They're cheaper to procure, cheaper to operate, and there are a lot more of them.

Pirates generally want to capture cargo ships. Q ships gives them something to think about when choosing a target.

A military commander may decided it is easier to destroy on sight any and all merchant ships of the class the q-ship is designed to resemble.

Duckk wrote:

cthia wrote:I always got the impression that every Q-ship was a rushed necessity. I'm talking about the next generation of purpose built Q-ships to fill a need of "bait and kill." Sure, these Trojan horses would be out of the bag quickly. But if enough of them are built and dispersed, then either pirates will go into another business or risk it. Either way a win-win for the GA and would be victims.

The present policy of protection only isn't going to continue to work for the GA. They're going to have to adopt a more aggressive policy. The Q-ship is essential for drawing them out.

My humble thoughts, such as they are anyways.

None of this requires a ship that's pretending to be something it's not, each of which has a substantial price tag associated with it. You're talking about building battleship sized platforms at the very minimum. Just how many do you think the Alliance is willing to build? To cover the volume of space for widespread piracy operations, you're looking at scores of ships. That's a whole navy's worth of capital ships. No one is going to be tying up what is effectively an entire fleet of capital ships on piracy operations. That's like parking the entire US Pacific Fleet off the coast of Somalia. That's a preposterous amount of firepower for fly swatting, which is why antipiracy patrols have always been performed by destroyers and cruisers. They're cheaper to procure, cheaper to operate, and there are a lot more of them.

Every dollar and spacer-hour spent on Q-ships for counter-piracy work has another rival, too: intelligence and police operations to cut off the pirates' suppliers and fences, and to locate their bases and routes. Warships are pricey things, and a lot of the occupation of them on piracy suppression is time spent trying to find the pirates. Whatever you can do that way without a warship - with human intelligence sources, or with recon platforms - is likely to be a tremendous savings if it is effective at all. Blowing the pirates away may take warships (let's hope no one is going to read me as suggesting it won't), but it would take far fewer warships the better able you are to find the spots to do the blowing away. (And heck, on some occasions, sufficient intelligence on their operations may mean catching them on the ground and arresting them with mere pulsers and tribarrels.)

According to HoS, the RMN only converted 15 Q-ships. Even the Janacek Admiralty only planned a dozen more - and cancelled them, scrapping the rest. The rest of the Navy had at least 600 ships between DD and BC size by then.

The Trojans were a project born out of desperation. They took already-existing merchant hulls and slapped surplus production components and experimental prototypes into them. IMO, their large crews indicates they were relatively inefficient designs. This is borne out in textev as well - IIRC, Harry Tschu came up with quite a few simple improvements simply to replicate what a warship would have had from the outset.

The Trojans probably initially cost as much as a SD even with used hulls, cost more than a BC to run on a day-to-day basis and was more fragile than a DD, with perhaps a BB's firepower(podlayer/LACcarriers complicate this calculation). A modernised Q-ship built from the keel up would improve on this, but given the limited production runs, would cost more than any other ship, create a warship equivalent to a BC(P), trading off some acceleration for more mass.

In the final analysis, they're better off spending their budget on more cruisers. Until there's a specific operation they need a Q-ship for, building them without very good reasons only leads other people to start looking closely at whichever freighter class served as its initial design template. Or worst case, all of their freighters, as happened to Haven at the end of OBS.

cthia wrote:I suppose there could theoretically be a Q-ship(P) at some point?

You mean something like HMAMC Wayfarer?

Wayfarer and her sisters were the proof of concept ships for both CLACs and for all "(P)" classes to follow.

Still, Q-Ships aren't the solution to eliminating piracy, CLACs and the traditional anti-piracy/convoy escort types -- DD through CA -- are the solution to eliminating piracy.

To defeat piracy, you need to be able to intercept pirates. That means you need to be in many places at once to be able to generate an intercept vector; Shrike/Ferret class LACs make the needed number of hulls affordable and have the armament/defenses/acceleration to take on 99% of pirates.

A CLAC with 100 LACs deployable can defend 1100% as much volume against pirates as a single Q-ship for not a great deal more expense.