Honorverse ramblings and musings

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:But it all comes down to power, because without power, nodes aren't going to do a thing. And one fusion core isn't going to give as much power as two fusion cores, or one over-sized fission pile seems to.

On a side note, I'm starting to suspect the compensator's aboard all non-MAlign craft require power to operate, as opposed to the powerless grav-plating that's utilized on MAlign spider-drive ships,

I also suspect that LACs carried vastly less fuel bunkerage than DDs, to squeeze into the 10,000 ton self imposed displacement. So to stretch that fuel they probably ran their reactors at very low power levels compared so the similar sized reactor in a DD. That might explain the apparent contradiction between a DD sized fusion reactor and needing to carry more supercaoacitors per ton than any other ship in space.

On your side note where did you get the idea that grav plates don't need power. I'm pretty sure that not only do they need power but the MAlign super plates were stated to be both bigger and more power hungry than conventional grav plates...

Maybe not no power, but definitely less. Which may correspond with them being less efficient than a compensator, even though grav plates seem to be better for stealth, whereas compensators (perhaps due to being energy hogs) lead to an easier detection?

I was just thinking this when I started re-reading ART, and got to the little snippet about the Ghost-class in Grayson that was going to pass less than 2 LM from a GSN cruiser on it's way to a Ghost rendezvous, and while they were sweating slightly, they weren't overly worried about being detected.

Which got me to thinking, well Ghost's seem to produce alot less heat than most other ships (and apparently that explains kzt's thing about heat generation being stupid... they're VERY efficient at heat reclamation), and Ghosts are even better at it than others, plus they emit it away from known threats to stay space-cold. Heat being a very large byproduct of energy, particularly from the fusion cores, there has to be a reason why they can operate with a much lower energy budget than other 'warships'. Lack of a wedge and using grav plates seems a valid hypothesis.

Haven destroying everthing on the way out out while in the process of being driven out of San Martin does mean that there was something there to destroy.

My rational was that, given the proximity to the Trevor's Star terminus and the need to keep the forces there in good operating order PLUS the need to keep a foot firmly planted on the necks of the San Martino's they would have moved at least repair ships into the system. Not saying the started building construction yards but the trip from the wormhole to San Martin is a lot shorter and could be done without hyperdrive. Cycleing ships to repair within the system- if you don't want to put fleet repair ships out around the wormhole- makes a lot more sense. Moving fleet logistics ships in for supply depots does the same thing. Move the supplies and services closer to a place you really really are wanting to hold since losing the terminus would (and did) mean that Manticore had just aquired a vast shortcut in the direction of Haven.
Haven was not used to loosing things they took. Barnett made and makes sence as a forward and staging base in the drive to Manticore for exactly the same reasons that White Haven had to take it before he could drive on the Trevor's Star terminus. A place to project power from and supply your forces closer to the front lines. White Haven, having taken Barnett, "only" needed to continue to deny it to Haven. San Martin, however, became a primary node on the path to Haven. The terminus is just on the doorstep of the San Martin system- which, again, White Haven and Manticore HAVE to defend as their deep access to the Republic and the reasonable place to create the staging base. Building up actual construction and anything beyond the stations to facilitate up and down travel to the planet would depend greatly on how much they believed they could do to improve the practical service ability of the system rather than bring everything through the terminus. Hydrogen mining and fueling facilities come to mind.
That they were liberating what had been a relatively long term trading partner and co-partner in the operation of the terminus would count as well. The local population- most of it- would be most likely to cooperate with Manticore and assist in the war effort. What actually happened- with San Martin petitioning to join the Empire- would certainly show that was a good move. They don't just have a tradeing partner back to which they are going to be pumping in economic recovery aid, they get a lot of people who are really pissed at Haven and activly joining in the war effort up throught co-beligerents and joining the RMN.

Somtaaw wrote:Maybe not no power, but definitely less. Which may correspond with them being less efficient than a compensator, even though grav plates seem to be better for stealth, whereas compensators (perhaps due to being energy hogs) lead to an easier detection?

I think you are misunderstanding how Inertial Compensators work. Compensators are only as efficient as the "Grav Sump" available to dump inertia into. In N-Space, that grav sump is the wedge. In Hyper and in a grav wav, it is the grav wave.

FWIW, In a grav wave, power is drawn from the sails and power requirements for grav plates or a compensator would be irrelevant.

Grav-plates are less efficient because they can't dump inertia into a grav sump -- which spider drive ships in N-space don't have. (They can traverse wormholes so they must have sails; if they have sails they can survive grav waves; if they can survive grave waves they can use compensators if they haven't given them up to save space.)

MAlign grav-plates are more "efficient" than standard 'plates in that they can offset more acceleration than normal. That doesn't say anything at all about their power consumption. (And they must consume power because nothing except travel in a grav wave is free.) If the streak drive can be used as an example, the MAlign isn't averse to using simple brute-force engineering to achieve desired results.

Insofar as power consumption even enters my consideration of the improved Grav plates in spider-drive ships, "moar pow-er" is the starting assumption.

Brigade XO wrote:Haven destroying everthing on the way out out while in the process of being driven out of San Martin does mean that there was something there to destroy.

My rational was that, given the proximity to the Trevor's Star terminus and the need to keep the forces there in good operating order PLUS the need to keep a foot firmly planted on the necks of the San Martino's they would have moved at least repair ships into the system. Not saying the started building construction yards but the trip from the wormhole to San Martin is a lot shorter and could be done without hyperdrive. Cycleing ships to repair within the system- if you don't want to put fleet repair ships out around the wormhole- makes a lot more sense. Moving fleet logistics ships in for supply depots does the same thing. Move the supplies and services closer to a place you really really are wanting to hold since losing the terminus would (and did) mean that Manticore had just aquired a vast shortcut in the direction of Haven.
Haven was not used to loosing things they took. Barnett made and makes sence as a forward and staging base in the drive to Manticore for exactly the same reasons that White Haven had to take it before he could drive on the Trevor's Star terminus. A place to project power from and supply your forces closer to the front lines. White Haven, having taken Barnett, "only" needed to continue to deny it to Haven. San Martin, however, became a primary node on the path to Haven. The terminus is just on the doorstep of the San Martin system- which, again, White Haven and Manticore HAVE to defend as their deep access to the Republic and the reasonable place to create the staging base. Building up actual construction and anything beyond the stations to facilitate up and down travel to the planet would depend greatly on how much they believed they could do to improve the practical service ability of the system rather than bring everything through the terminus. Hydrogen mining and fueling facilities come to mind.
That they were liberating what had been a relatively long term trading partner and co-partner in the operation of the terminus would count as well. The local population- most of it- would be most likely to cooperate with Manticore and assist in the war effort. What actually happened- with San Martin petitioning to join the Empire- would certainly show that was a good move. They don't just have a tradeing partner back to which they are going to be pumping in economic recovery aid, they get a lot of people who are really pissed at Haven and activly joining in the war effort up throught co-beligerents and joining the RMN.

I think you may be somewhat confused. The People's Republic of Haven could not utilize the wormhole terminus to Manticore for naval ships after On Basisisk Station by Crown proclamtion, unless they were going to attack by transiting the wormhole. White Haven didn't move on Barnett until Operation Buttercup*, well after Manticore had taken Trevor's Star**.

* Operation Buttercup took place in Ashes of Victory.

** Trevor's Star was taken by Manticore between Honor Among Enemies and In Enemy Hands.

Vince wrote:I think you may be somewhat confused. The People's Republic of Haven could not utilize the wormhole terminus to Manticore for naval ships after On Basisisk Station by Crown proclamtion, unless they were going to attack by transiting the wormhole. White Haven didn't move on Barnett until Operation Buttercup*, well after Manticore had taken Trevor's Star**.

* Operation Buttercup took place in Ashes of Victory.

** Trevor's Star was taken by Manticore between Honor Among Enemies and In Enemy Hands.

I had a post mostly written up on that (which I'm about to post most of anyway to expand on your points)

As you said Trevor's Star was taken prior to In Enemy Hands (by White Haven with 6th fleet). And also as you said he didn't attack Barnett until a couple books latter, as part of 8th fleet's Operation Buttercup where they unleashed SD(P)s, MDMs, CLACs, and LACs for their first widespread operational use.

At the start of IEH White Haven was at Grayson working to round up ships for 8th fleet for future offensive action because his previous command, 6th fleet, became the defensive fleet for Trevor's Star. (Remember that Honor and her cruiser command was to be attached to 8th fleet, after she completed the convoy mission she grabbed). And after Honor was captured she was taken through Barnett on her way to Hades (where Theisman, the then Barnett System Commander, had that very alarming conversation with Cordelia Ransom)

Ok, amateur hour again. Pardon me?...

There were a few versions of Q-ships. Offerings from Beowulf, Haven and the Star Empire. From what I gather, they were all built on freighter platforms. I was under the impression that some freighters were even larger than SDs.

Yet, the wiki gives warship class by mass and has Haven's Sirius listed just under SDs. If there were an emergency and a few Astra class (Sirius) Q-ships were available, would they slot in as effective ships of the wall in-between Dreadnaughts and SDs?

I'm wondering if the GA were to come to a point in time when piracy suppression is all that is left -- when the current priorities have been dealt with and if many Q-ships are elected to be built, would these many Q-ships readily fit into the wall of battle as effective combatants if need be?

In other words, are Q-ships as effective as anything below SDs? Pod designs withstanding, of course.

I suppose there could theoretically be a Q-ship(P) at some point?

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Ship_Types

.

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/139/1

Thanks Duckk. That link answers many more questions I had as well.

If all of you would be so kind to further indulge...

Conceivably, could Q-ships be built as tough as regular warships, perhaps sacrificing total missile loadout? Which, of course, that disadvantage could be lessened if the entire loadout were long-legged Apollo missiles. Then, a Q-ship wouldn't have any need to draw a pirate in. And if an emergency war was kicked off somewhere, they could slot right in just under SDs.

I know RFC doesn't like building specialty ships, But Q-ships have already sailed from that dock. I'm thinking that in a time of peace -- less piracy, an investment in Q-ships would seriously wage war on piracy and remain available to take their slot in the wall of battle if need be.

Putting any Q-ship into a wall with SDs would be "counter-indicated' unless you were thinking of using it as a missile sponge for a few minutes during the fighting. Not exactly an optimal use of the type

Why would anyone build a meaningful numbers of a capital ship that's not really a capital ship, except just maybe when in case of emergency? Who needs that many large warships masquerading as merchant ships? Even the Peeps, the most prolific practitioners of the Q-ship built only a handful to support their surprise attack/first strike doctrine.

This is fundamentally a backwards way of fleet construction. One does not come up with ships, then find them an operational role. Chris Weuve's section in House of Steel covers how one would come up with a fleet force mix, and come up with mission requirements that might prompt the design of new ships. The question you should be asking is what need does the Q-ship fulfill in the current operational environment above and beyond the existing fleet mix? Frankly, I don't see it. You say that "piracy suppression is all that is left". Why then would they be building massive 4, 5, 6 million ton capital ships to cover a need that has well been covered by sub-megaton combatants for years? Simply mass producing Saganami-Cs (or its successor) would provide substantially more protection than tying up the equivalent amount of funds, manpower, and resources in larger but less numerous Q-ships. You don't need something that is effectively a battleship or dreadnought for the mission role you are envisioning.