How To Convert entire populace

TBird50 wrote:I very much doubt, based on our own history, that the entire populace could be converted. It's just not going to happen. Believers believe whatever they believe and nothing can convince them otherwise. The key is to marginalize those zealots and get the majority of the population convinced. A tough slog, if you ask me.

I was reading this thread from the start and there has been a lot of tangential threads to this one, so let me add a few more.

1. I've been wondering if it is morally OK to drag Safehold and it's people into another fight with the Gbaba. Apparently they are safe as long as technology is restricted, so should we force technology on them and put them at risk? I think of the "hidden tribes" or whatever discovered in the 20th century in Africa or SA and the question of whether it was right to expose them to our way of life or to just let them be. People on Safehold, while obviuously not in perfect harmony with each other, are still/or were relatively happy in their lives.

I suggest that there is no need for Safeholdians to be dragged into the war against the Gbaba. As much as Merlin might like to have them do so, they are thousands of light years from the Gbaba, and unless they actively search them out, they may never see them.

I think the real point is, as was pointed out in a later post, a return to what the TF had, and for a just-in-case, this is where you need to be technology-wise if you run into the Gbaba again.

On the other hand, where's the fun in the story if the Safeholdian Federation doesn't go back and kick some Gbaba ass right out of the universe?

Oh, I suspect the long term plan is not to leave the Gbabba free to do the same to the next unsuspecting species they happen to meet nor to leave the billions of human dead unavenged - whatever the Writ or certain other books may have to say about vengeance.

Expert snuggler wrote:What part of their decisions about how to live is Merlin usurping?

The Church of Charis has freedom of conscience as a core doctrine. Temple Loyalists worship and meet freely.

If they don't want to live in a technological society, well, we have Amish today.

If they want to live in peace, they are being prevented from that. It's not Merlin's fault. Merlin didn't start the war, though admittedly he would have sooner or later.

The Empire of Charis is increasing choice and freedom in all its territory.

Merlin is putting all of Safehold at risk. It won't matter if an Amish type society exists if the Gbabba finds Safehold. The Amish in our world don't have that looming disaster hanging over their heads. It's one thing to risk the EoC, since they were at risk of being destroyed anyway, but is it OK to risk all of Safehold? These questions fascinate me because there is no clear answer. A lot was kept from the people, but if they don't know they had it - do they miss it? Obviously there wouldn't be a story if Merlin hadn't decided to jump into the fray, and I'm fine with that - I love the story. It's more of a rhetorical question about morality.

But there are other aspects that make it a huge risk. For one thing, just like they don't know what will trigger the OBS, they don't really know what attracted the Gbabba to them in the first place. So how do you not do what you don't know what not to do? That's why, to me, they should rapidly advance technology on that island to see what triggers the OBS. If nothing triggers it, that could be a problem because they still wouldn't know, but if it does trigger then it provides a good baseline. This would have to be after the war, tho IMO.

Hey thanks for the discussion, it's fun.

TBird50 wrote:

With reference to your number 1, who has the right to be making choices for others. On Safehold it was the church. Without any reference to the Gbabba, the church sanctioned a social system that made slaves out of millions of Desnairn and Harchongese serfs. The church in the name of enforcing the proscriptions condemned millions to premature deaths by preventing the discovery of cures for disease. The church insists on doing peoples thinking for them to the point of imposing the greatest intellectual straitjacket in history. The mere fact that so many have accepted this state of affairs doesn't make the situation a happy one.

As for the happy state of the noble savage, I don't buy it, not for one minute. Life for primative peoples was mean, brutal and short. That they didn't realize that there are alternatives for their situation or know enough to be unhappy doesn't mean that their situation is a happy state of affairs.

Don

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Don,
You are almost making my point. You're saying that the CoGA did not have the right to decide for the people of Safehold how they should live. I absolutely agree, but how does that make it right for Merlin and the CoC to do so? Plus the CoGA as you say sanctioned a system that condemned a lot of people to premature deaths. But what Merlin and the CoC are proposing puts the whole world at risk of annihilation. Is that any different morally? It could possibly be argued that it is worse because it's putting everyone at risk.[/quote]

I see Merlin and the COC as making choices available. If someone wishes to live under COGA style regimentation, they will be free to do so. Only now it won't be the only game in town.

As for the risk, I think your statement is a bit overblown. But there is indeed risk no matter what Merlin and co. do. Pei Shanwei's point was that eventually humans would re-enter space inspite of anything Langhorne could do. Better that Safehold be aware of the Gbabba and know what they need to do to cope with it than wander out into space unknowing.

When Merlin came on the scene in OAR, he was tempted to leave well enough alone, but Langhorne's template was already cracking, especially in Charis.

Don

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There's a serious dramatic conflict looming.

What happens when Safehold is a multi-system spacefaring society with TF technology and Merlin pushes for revenge against the Gbaba?

The practical response from the Safeholders would be to tell Merlin to go to his happy place and leave them alone. They might ask him to see a Bedardist to get over his obsession with revenge.

A victory against the Gbaba would come at an agonizing cost.

Come to think of it, it was always the Safeholders's fate to have others decide their destiny. Even if the good guys had won the political battles in the colonization board, they would still have imposed a temporary technology blackout.

(Was the good guys's plan to wait out the Gbaba and reboot technological civilization after a few centuries, or was it just to keep an enclave around Just In Case?)

In any event, all Merlin has really done is to save Charis. His actual political power is limited. Cayleb is the type who would insist on winning any major argument.

TBird50 wrote:
Merlin is putting all of Safehold at risk. It won't matter if an Amish type society exists if the Gbabba finds Safehold. The Amish in our world don't have that looming disaster hanging over their heads. It's one thing to risk the EoC, since they were at risk of being destroyed anyway, but is it OK to risk all of Safehold? These questions fascinate me because there is no clear answer. A lot was kept from the people, but if they don't know they had it - do they miss it? Obviously there wouldn't be a story if Merlin hadn't decided to jump into the fray, and I'm fine with that - I love the story. It's more of a rhetorical question about morality.

But there are other aspects that make it a huge risk. For one thing, just like they don't know what will trigger the OBS, they don't really know what attracted the Gbabba to them in the first place. So how do you not do what you don't know what not to do? That's why, to me, they should rapidly advance technology on that island to see what triggers the OBS. If nothing triggers it, that could be a problem because they still wouldn't know, but if it does trigger then it provides a good baseline. This would have to be after the war, tho IMO.

Hey thanks for the discussion, it's fun.

TBird... great analogy! The Amish made a choice that technology would not rule their lives and each adult reaffirms that choice when they become members of the Church... a few thing to keep in mind however, if some 'redneck' in a pick up truck crashes into the horse and buggy there will likely be a dead horse and likely a person or three.
We have seen nothing to let us think that the Gbabba will slow down and give room for safe passage.

It would be tactically foolish to go looking for them as soon as the humans have space travel again... but it would also be suicide to encounter them again without regaining the tech base.

I have personally seen a horse drawn buggy with a (battery powered) custom sound system in it... I know of Amish teens who had pick up trucks till they became members of the church and I have seen tractors with cast iron wheels or with horse drawn combines that had small motors to drive the gears and farmers with electricity into the milk parlor to run the refrigerated thanks so the milk is still fresh when the dairy tanker comes to pick it up.
Admittedly, these last examples would not be possible on Safehold while the CoGA held control because they would not even be 'on the radar' but the argument that Pei Shan-wei made in her last confrontation... humans try things till they come up with an answer.

mhicks wrote:The big issue Merlin faces is the platform and the unknown under the temple. The fear of something waking up in under 10 years is what makes this war so important for Charis to totally dominate and the church to be crushed into tiny pieces. If it was not for the need to expedite the war due to unknown under the temple or the restraint of movement by platform, Merlin could wait the generations needed to let human nature and curiosity take over.
Once the temple is under the inner circles control and Paiter Wylsynn gets in and tells the platform to let merlin and owl take control the war against the gbaba can begin. Human kind can take all the time in the world to experiment and learn and grow and get out of the tech dark ages. Merlin and the inner circle can recruit people (and take all the young impressionable orphans giving them neral implants and NEATS) to the cause of fighting the Gbaba and join with OWL the way Nahrmahn Baytz has and THINK about how to improve the TF weapons and ship designs in the computers at accelerated rates, start up "Operation Arc the Sequel", keep a tab on safehold with probes that alert when they are 1)found by Gbaba,2)start to explore space beyond safehold and the moon longhorn,or 3) have started to go backwards in their tech/knowledge base.
From the new planet by "Operation Lesser Arc" the TF can pick up were it left off leaving behind all the worried warts on safehold. The new TF comes back once and a while to collect more recruits that the inner circle gets and none are the wiser. Soon stories of alien abductions get the people thinking about space and other forms of life.
2000 years after the Gbaba are destroyed Safeholdians encounter the TF and hugs and kisses go all around.

I think that we are on the same page... that doesn't make us right but

Expert snuggler wrote:What happens when Safehold is a multi-system spacefaring society with TF technology and Merlin pushes for revenge against the Gbaba?

I don't get the impression that Merlin is going to push for revenge against the Gbaba. I get the impression he is more inclined to push for the capability to defend against the Gbaba as a minimum and is willing to let the spacefarers of Safehold decide when (or if) to go searching for the Gbaba to commit genocide.

Weird Harold wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:What happens when Safehold is a multi-system spacefaring society with TF technology and Merlin pushes for revenge against the Gbaba?

I don't get the impression that Merlin is going to push for revenge against the Gbaba. I get the impression he is more inclined to push for the capability to defend against the Gbaba as a minimum and is willing to let the spacefarers of Safehold decide when (or if) to go searching for the Gbaba to commit genocide.

Hi Weird Harold,

Check out a little conversation between Merlin and Nimue in LAMA right before that final scene between Merlin and Aivah.

The upshot is that Merlin and Nimue are very much wanting revenge, or justice, if you will, for the murdered worlds of the Terran Federation.

Don

There are a number of things that needed to be added here.

First is that there is no way that Merlin and Nimue can force a rejuvenated, space faring humanity to do anything that it does not want to do no matter how much, as I noted in a previous post, both of them very much want to go after the Gbabba when it becomes possible for them to do so.

Secondly, Safehold is at risk right now. The risk is rather remote that the scouts are still looking for human colonies, but that is not to say that there is no risk at all. Should a Gbabba fleet show up at Safehold at this point in the story, humanity has all of its eggs in one basket and is toast.

Thirdly, given what we know about what would need to happen before humanity would be ready for another round with the Gbabba, I can't imagine it happening is less than 200-300 years. let's look at that.

Number 1 would be to build up a scientific and industrial base on Safehold itself capable of supporting a space faring presence. Then along with their own research, they would have to build on the tech that has been preserved for them in Nimue's cave. IIRC, Admiral Pei speculated that at the time of Operation Arc, the TF still needed about 50 years not only to pull even, but to pull ahead of the Gbabba, enabling humanity to go after the Gbabba rather than the other way around. This needs to be done whether or not it is decided to seek out the Gbabba.

Number 2 would be to build a multistellar human federation at least as big if not bigger than the TF itself. It would be the height of folly to go looking for the Gbabba if Safehold was humanity's only home. Included in this should be a colony remote enough not to be at danger if things were to go to the crapper again and the Gbabba (or someone else unfriendly) should come calling.

Number 3 would be to build powerful fleets that would not be overwhelmed by Gbabba numbers which was really what happened to the TF.

Operation Ark never contemplated indefinitely confining humanity to primitivism. The orginal idea was to go bush long enough for any Gbabba scouts who might be happening by looking for a colony a total of about 500 years to come and go after which humanity could (cautiously) rebuild its tech base and eventually enter space again. When Commodore Pei set the timer on Nimue's PICA, he set it at 750 years or half again that long. In the briefing that he left behind, he gave Nimue complete freedom as to how she was going to respond to the situation.

As I recall from some of RFC's posts or pearls, there were to be two enclaves where TF tech was to be preserved, Alexandria and Zion. But Langhorne changed the mission orders, reprogramed the minds of the colonists in cyro, and the rest followed from there. Langhorne's idea was basically to crawl into a hole, pull the hole in behind him and consign humanity to permanent primitivism as opposed to a planned recovery of technology.

Does this involve risk? Yes. But there is no way to completely avoid risk no matter what course of action is ultimately decided on. For that matter, shifting the discussion to our own timeline, we could be at risk. Do we really know that our own version of the Gbabba are not out there and could some day come calling? I don't believe we are alone in the universe. Do you?

Don

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