Hidden Order in Siddarmark

PalmerSperry wrote:
I think Siddarmark being a Republic is strongly suggestive of being the result of some secret order. Not necessarily positive proof mind, since as far as I'm aware, none of the republics on Earth came about as a result of the machinations of a secret order that predated creation! However I don't think it's necessarily the case that said secret order still exists, or if it still exists, has any real power or influence. The "republican tradition" seems to be pretty ingrained in Siddarmark at this point and thus not necessarily requiring any active management to keep it on track.

From what we've heard of the original enclaves, they were all little republics to start. In the War Against the Fallen, the Archangels gave at least implicit blessings to hereditary aristocracies that sprouted up, and since then the Church has enjoyed the conservatism and financial dependence they bring. I suppose you could still look for some secret order to discourage the abandonment of republicanism in proto-Siddarmark, but the explanation that rings in the fewest challenges to an plausible account is still simple preference for nominal human equality there over the machinations of some ancient hidden conspiracy.

Harchong being the result of another secret order that took completely the opposite approach to overthrowing the Church is an interesting idea. Also entirely possible, but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.

Yes. And wary of expecting too much of them.

The Brotherhood of St. Zherneau and the Sisterhood of St. Kohdy should be considered wildly successful, but what they've achieved has been relatively modest. They've preserved themselves as secrets; they've retained the resources to maintain themselves comfortably in as great a number as security would permit anyway; they've carried on the knowledge of secret history at the core of their orders. They have had a small, gentle influence on Charisian political and religious culture and Temple corruption respectively - less so for the Sisterhood, but they have, unlike the Brotherhood, worked up a much vaster intelligence and covert action establishment.

But that's all. Preserving or introducing an entirely different form of government for the most powerful state on Safehold would be asking far, far more of the hypothetical Siddarmark one. The most you could ask there would be a bit more gentle encouragement of something they were inclined towards anyway. Just what a Harchongese one would be doing to create modern Harchong as an attack on the Church is elusive. If the idea is to turn the Church into a hideously corrupt body, backed by an Empire of Harchong that's an ongoing human rights disaster with an arthritic government, so that the rest of Safehold has enough of it and rebels... Well. It suffers from excess ambition (if the Church and Harchong were not already heavily inclined to go those directions) and from a horrible disconnection of ends and means such that few people would be willing to carry it out over centuries.

A secret order that threw up gunpowder and got it past the Inquisition, for the purpose primarily of canal-building and thereby undermining labor-intensive agriculture in Harchong, wouldn't be aiming so very high, would have plenty of cover as doing something any thoughtful Harchongese patriot and loyal son of the Church might, wouldn't have to be large or powerful, and wouldn't have a clash between what they want in the end and what they're doing to bring it out.

It's easy to imagine a secret society of Harchongese bureaucrats who place profit above piety.

PalmerSperry wrote:...but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.

Of course not. Secret societies under every bed is a silly idea. Everybody knows Secret Societies meet in closets or basements.

PalmerSperry wrote:

6L6 wrote:I think that the last book might expose another hidden order in Siddarmark, like Saint Zherneau's and Saint Kohdy's. Protector Stohnar could be in the know. That would make an interesting scene with Cayleb and Greghor confiding in each other. What say you all?

I think Siddarmark being a Republic is strongly suggestive of being the result of some secret order. Not necessarily positive proof mind, since as far as I'm aware, none of the republics on Earth came about as a result of the machinations of a secret order that predated creation! However I don't think it's necessarily the case that said secret order still exists, or if it still exists, has any real power or influence. The "republican tradition" seems to be pretty ingrained in Siddarmark at this point and thus not necessarily requiring any active management to keep it on track.

Harchong being the result of another secret order that took completely the opposite approach to overthrowing the Church is an interesting idea. Also entirely possible, but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.

Except for the "predating creation" part, it was my understanding that many of the founding fathers of the United States were members of a secret society which still exists today, although it is somewhat less secretive. I do believe that they even managed to include some of the symbols of that society in the currency of the US.

Weird Harold wrote:

PalmerSperry wrote:...but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.

Of course not. Secret societies under every bed is a silly idea. Everybody knows Secret Societies meet in closets or basements.

The fact that you haven't discovered the secret society that meets under your bed is surely proof of how successful said society is at remaining secret?

On a similar note, absence of evidence is proof of two conspiracies - the one that did the original deed, and the second one that covered it up!

PalmerSperry wrote:

6L6 wrote:I think that the last book might expose another hidden order in Siddarmark, like Saint Zherneau's and Saint Kohdy's. Protector Stohnar could be in the know. That would make an interesting scene with Cayleb and Greghor confiding in each other. What say you all?

I think Siddarmark being a Republic is strongly suggestive of being the result of some secret order. Not necessarily positive proof mind, since as far as I'm aware, none of the republics on Earth came about as a result of the machinations of a secret order that predated creation! However I don't think it's necessarily the case that said secret order still exists, or if it still exists, has any real power or influence. The "republican tradition" seems to be pretty ingrained in Siddarmark at this point and thus not necessarily requiring any active management to keep it on track.

Harchong being the result of another secret order that took completely the opposite approach to overthrowing the Church is an interesting idea. Also entirely possible, but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.

RFC explained the republican traditions as being the result of several cities that shared in common a tradition of trading and mercantilism, presumably similar to Venice. My recollection here is a bit mucky, but I think the stimulus for coming together was to pool strength to avoid conquest.

At any rate no secret order was involved. The COGA did not oppose Siddarmarkan republicanism in its early stages. It was later after the Republic became a bit too successful as it expanded as part of the process of resisting Desnair's imperial pretensions that tensions begin to develop with the church.

Don

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The following comment is not (or may not be) related to a hidden order, but it could be, so I'm tossing it in here:

The basic question is: how did a significant chunk of Howard become part of Harchong?

Considering the separation between Haven and Howard across the Sea of Harchong/Gulf of Dohlar, and the relatively primitive transportation system in existance during the first 100-200 years, it would not have originally been part of Harchong, but one or more separate settlements.

The most likely reason/method for Harchong to expand onto Howard would be conquest. We are told that culture of South Harchong is slightly different from that of Harchong on Haven (better manufacturing, less rigidity of culture, more tolerance of commerce); this could be a residue of the original culture of the area before the conquest.

If that's the case, then there could easily have been a hidden order in what became South Harchong, and it could still be there, driven underground by the Harchongese conquerors.

Philip Stanley

Philip Stanley wrote:The following comment is not (or may not be) related to a hidden order, but it could be, so I'm tossing it in here:

The basic question is: how did a significant chunk of Howard become part of Harchong?

Considering the separation between Haven and Howard across the Sea of Harchong/Gulf of Dohlar, and the relatively primitive transportation system in existance during the first 100-200 years, it would not have originally been part of Harchong, but one or more separate settlements.

The most likely reason/method for Harchong to expand onto Howard would be conquest. We are told that culture of South Harchong is slightly different from that of Harchong on Haven (better manufacturing, less rigidity of culture, more tolerance of commerce); this could be a residue of the original culture of the area before the conquest.

If that's the case, then there could easily have been a hidden order in what became South Harchong, and it could still be there, driven underground by the Harchongese conquerors.

Philip Stanley

IIRC, it was a combination of conquest and colonization. South Harchong is really just across the Gulf from the Harchongese heartland and at one time Harchong had an effective naval tradition which made expanding in that direction natural.

Don

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Keith_w wrote:
Except for the "predating creation" part, it was my understanding that many of the founding fathers of the United States were members of a secret society which still exists today, although it is somewhat less secretive. I do believe that they even managed to include some of the symbols of that society in the currency of the US.

Many of the founding fathers were Masons which, although is publically known has a pretty strong secret element to it.

Don

Two thoughts from reading this thread.
1) Could the gunpowder come from Adams remembering the product, it's use and formulation/name? (One of the Adams might have been a historian who liked making black powder muskets as a hobby)
2) When Archbishop of Glacierheart escaped through tunnels that were older than the maps of the mines in the area, I wondered if there weren't more mines out there hiding a module. His mine was long and deep and run out of resources. It made me think that it was dug before or during the war of the fallen from how it was described in the book. I wondered why it had been dug in the first place from it's description.