Honorverse ramblings and musings

A strategic objective is normally an enemy's major bases. There are different factors that make a base "major." In Trevor Star's case, it is strategic location and the tactical advantage of having the interior position it affords in holding it.

My point is that persistent ambitious Manty military operations support the importance of Trevor Star's major fleet base status. But I don't recall mention of any other persistent operations, on a similar magnitude, as Trevor's Star, against any other bases in the same manner which would likewise suggest a major base.

And I'm already sad that Trevor's Star pretty much took place offscreen. It seems there are now two major fleet bases captured -- off-screen.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks.

I was involved in some major league wrestling with that one. I couldn't think of any of what I thought was a major fleet base except Trevor's Star.

Truthfully, I didn't think it had been "ultimately" acquired at that point either. But I seem to remember that Trevor's Star changed hands a few times before it was "ultimately" taken and kept. And I couldn't remember when it was taken first, IINM.

I don't think Trevor's Star was ever a major fleet base for the PRH. They put DuQuesne Base nearby in Barnett, not too far away that it couldn't quickly reinforce(or retake) Trevor's Star. They only had a blocking force strong enough to stop a wormhole assault and nowhere as much in the way of 'fixed' defenses as Barnett did.

At one time, DuQuesne Base was the third largest PRN base with a million personnel total. San Martin has a surface gravity of 2.7g, establishing a military base there difficult and secrecy would have been an issue as well, as one of the reasons for invading Trevor's Star was to gain transit fees from its wormhole.

Trevor's Star only changed hands once during the war. IIRC, the only system that changed hands three times might be Adler, the one Tourville also captured Harrington in. It started out in PRH control, was captured, temporarily reoccupied by Tourville and then re-recaptured.

Yeltsin, Alizon and Zanzibar have been attacked multiple times, but never captured.

Oops. I ninja posted myself. I missed your post. Sorry for me.

I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

The junction terminus alone justifies the operations.

I'd guess that ...

Haven (presumably) blew up the San Martin Navy's fixed installations in the process of conquering Trevor's Star. There was a more or less prolonged guerilla war on the surface afterward, which would make Haven reluctant to employ locals in constructing a Havenite base. And I got the impression that the prefab bases Manticore is using at the Lynx terminus and beyond are not standard practice. So odds are Haven never had any major fixed assets at San Martin beyond what was minimally necessary to support the occupation, though they did have a major fleet presence there.

Once Manticore retook Trevor's Star, it had a major Manticoran fleet presence. It didn't have a base, because Manticoran didn't have the free manpower to build it yet, and Trevor's Star was just setting up its own government again. No one knew what the long-term relationship of San Martin to Manticore would be. After San Martin joined the Star Kingdom, though, I'd guess a lot of infrastructure was built, and it's now a major Manticoran fleet base. But that's new.

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

Trevor's Star has a naval interior position for Manticore if Manticore holds the system, due to the terminus connecting to the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, allowing unescorted freighters to move directly from the Manticore Binary System to the Trevor's Star, with only local escort forces needed in-system.

Trevor's Star has a limited naval interior position for Haven only if Haven holds the surrounding systems. Freighters moving to Trevor's Star will still need escorts for the entire journey.

Vince wrote:

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

Trevor's Star has a naval interior position for Manticore if Manticore holds the system, due to the terminus connecting to the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, allowing unescorted freighters to move directly from the Manticore Binary System to the Trevor's Star, with only local escort forces needed in-system.

Trevor's Star has a limited naval interior position for Haven only if Haven holds the surrounding systems. Freighters moving to Trevor's Star will still need escorts for the entire journey.

Vince, this is the best account of the tactical benefits of having the interior position at Trevor's Star I've seen. In fact, it is the only account I've seen. Kudos! Makes lots of sense too.

One inherent benefit of having the interior position is it prevents an enemy from easily flanking you or concentrating a central prong of attack. Control of the wormhole accomplishes that.

Excellent Vince. Perhaps RFC will give us a Trevor's Star flashback of sorts demonstrating this, one chapter in the near future.

Don't know 'bout any of you, but I'd be tickled raw pink!

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

Vince wrote:Trevor's Star has a naval interior position for Manticore if Manticore holds the system, due to the terminus connecting to the Manticoran Wormhole Junction, allowing unescorted freighters to move directly from the Manticore Binary System to the Trevor's Star, with only local escort forces needed in-system.

Trevor's Star has a limited naval interior position for Haven only if Haven holds the surrounding systems. Freighters moving to Trevor's Star will still need escorts for the entire journey.

cthia wrote:Vince, this is the best account of the tactical benefits of having the interior position at Trevor's Star I've seen. In fact, it is the only account I've seen. Kudos! Makes lots of sense too.

One inherent benefit of having the interior position is it prevents an enemy from easily flanking you or concentrating a central prong of attack. Control of the wormhole accomplishes that.

Excellent Vince. Perhaps RFC will give us a Trevor's Star flashback of sorts demonstrating this, one chapter in the near future.

Don't know 'bout any of you, but I'd be tickled raw pink!

My analysis of the naval interior position of Trevor's Star is straight from White Haven thinking:

Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 1 wrote:He heard the pinnace's air-breathing turbines whine as it began its final approach to Landing and shook himself. Between them, he and Kuzak had finally evolved a plan which might—might—let them take Trevor's Star, and that was something they had to do. The system contained the only terminus of the Manticore Worm Hole Junction which Manticore did not already control, which made it a deadly potential threat to the Star Kingdom. But it was a two-edged sword for the Peeps. Its capture would not only eliminate the threat of direct invasion but give the RMN a secure bridgehead deep inside the Republic. Ships—warships, as well as supply vessels—could move between the RMN's most powerful fleet bases and the battle front virtually instantaneously, with no threat of interception. Capture of Trevor's Star—if it was ever captured—would both ease the Navy's logistics enormously and open a whole new range of strategic options, which made it the most valuable prize short of the Haven System itself. But even if White Haven's plan worked, it would take at least four more months, minimum, and from Caparelli's dispatches, maintaining the momentum that long wasn't going to be easy.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

Trevor's star clearly had a major fleet deployment; as in Haven stationed large fleets there to defend it. But that's different that a fleet base which has all the base level repair facilities to pull major maintenance, the equipment and munitions stockpiles, etc, etc.

Norfolk Virginia and San Diego California are major USN fleet bases. Taiwan isn't despite the fact that there's usually a carrier battle group patrolling in the area.

Or going back to WWII examples, Pearl Harbor was a major fleet base; Guadalcanal wasn't even when much of the USN cruiser fleet was fighting to hold it (covered, at a distance, by a significant portion of the USN carrier fleet)

There's no indication the Trevor's Star was ever built back up as a repair and supply base. It was a critical system for the Peeps to hold, but not one especially well placed for offensive action against Manticore - or at least not substantially better than existing nearby bases that predated it's annexation.

Vince wrote:My analysis of the naval interior position of Trevor's Star is straight from White Haven thinking [from Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 1]

Vince, thanks for finding that. I thought I'd remembered RFC including that in the books, but I was having trouble finding it. Turns out I wasn't looking early enough (I'd spot checked Echoes of Honor and In Enemy Hands; the books after the capture. Didn't think to look at the pre-capture forward planning)



However while looking I did rule out Treadway or Solway as the major fleet bases captured from the quote cthia posted earlier. IEH says that the forward bases of Treadway, Solway, and Mathias were snapped up by other Manticoran formations while the Peeps were busy failing to fend off 6th fleet's attempts to finally take Trevor's Star. So those captures are too late to be the quote mentioned.
Based on Duckk we know Seaford Nine was one, but we still don't seem to have a good candidate for the other.

Theemile wrote:The original Cimeterre w the fusion plant had a 96 hour endurance. Manticorian fission LACs had a 18 month endurance on the powerplant, with consumables for a considerable time (weeks), assuming you wanted to live on canned rations in a sardine can.

You lot have been throwing these ship sizes around for so long you've forgotten how big they really are. The old Fearless, sent to Basilisk, was the size of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier with a crew of 200 compared to 7,000 on a Nimitz.

I spent 2 1/2 years on a 2700 metric ton destroyer. It could carry enough food for 40 days for a crew of 240. The LAC is 7 times bigger with a crew of 10.

A better comparison would be an Ohio class ballistic missile submarine, which can remain submerged for up to six months, limited only by food. The LAC is shorter and fatter, but has almost exactly the same volume and mass. A coincidence? The sub has a standard crew of 165.
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Firepower is not a thousand bullets that miss - it's one bullet that hits.

munroburton wrote:Yeltsin, Alizon and Zanzibar have been attacked multiple times, but never captured.

Yeltsin has been only been attacked three times, four if you count Oyster Bay strikes, since they started speaking to Manticore about signing up against Haven.

Alizon and Zanzibar are both essentially the France of the Haven Sector. Everytime there's a war, they both get rolled and their entire spaceside presence utterly annihilated, rebuilt and wiped out again. If Manticore, Yeltsin and Haven weren't such players, I'd actually be expecting for the future equivalent of Napolean to be popping up eventually and leading one of those two systems to redeeming glory... but Honor's children probably have that claim in the future books, unless they befriend a tactical genius from Zanzibar or Alizon.

I think Zanzibar is worse off than Alizon, having been rolled upwards of 5 times, Alizon has gotten rolled at least twice, and Yeltsin is still sitting fairly pretty as the undeniable "every attack has been beaten off with ease"; unless you include Oyster Bay then they took one beating but still holding strong.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I thought for certain Trevor's Star enjoys major fleet base status. Doesn't the massive operations against it support that notion?

It enjoys a quirk of the "interior position" which allows a force to dig in. An enemy has to be willing to take serious losses to capture it.

Trevor's Star has to have a real life Old Earth counterpart - Hamburger Hill perhaps?

Trevor's star clearly had a major fleet deployment; as in Haven stationed large fleets there to defend it. But that's different that a fleet base which has all the base level repair facilities to pull major maintenance, the equipment and munitions stockpiles, etc, etc.

Norfolk Virginia and San Diego California are major USN fleet bases. Taiwan isn't despite the fact that there's usually a carrier battle group patrolling in the area.

Or going back to WWII examples, Pearl Harbor was a major fleet base; Guadalcanal wasn't even when much of the USN cruiser fleet was fighting to hold it (covered, at a distance, by a significant portion of the USN carrier fleet)

There's no indication the Trevor's Star was ever built back up as a repair and supply base. It was a critical system for the Peeps to hold, but not one especially well placed for offensive action against Manticore - or at least not substantially better than existing nearby bases that predated it's annexation.

Vince wrote:My analysis of the naval interior position of Trevor's Star is straight from White Haven thinking [from Honor Among Enemies, Chapter 1]

Vince, thanks for finding that. I thought I'd remembered RFC including that in the books, but I was having trouble finding it. Turns out I wasn't looking early enough (I'd spot checked Echoes of Honor and In Enemy Hands; the books after the capture. Didn't think to look at the pre-capture forward planning)



However while looking I did rule out Treadway or Solway as the major fleet bases captured from the quote cthia posted earlier. IEH says that the forward bases of Treadway, Solway, and Mathias were snapped up by other Manticoran formations while the Peeps were busy failing to fend off 6th fleet's attempts to finally take Trevor's Star. So those captures are too late to be the quote mentioned.
Based on Duckk we know Seaford Nine was one, but we still don't seem to have a good candidate for the other.

Awesome dig out of the archives. Methanks. It's about time the supporting textev finally got fleshed out.

It does offer some light shed on the interior position and leaves room for further extrapolation.

One thing that seems clearer though, is this certainly qualifies Trevor's Star as at least a major fleet objective (a difference which y'all have managed to point out to me) -- because of those same Strategic & Tactical intangibles.

It's an object of desire and denial. You covet it for what it can do for your strategic position. You have to deny it to your enemy for those same reasons. I said it before, Trevor's Star reminds me of acquiring the Mason-Dixon line in checkers. Acquire and deny. Or posting up a passed pawn on "Q or K-4or5" in chess.

I could blame it on my inner geek, but I've been leeching off that guy since I can remember. lol

As Johnathan said, that still leaves the dissemination of the other major fleet base.