Infrastructure

noblehunter wrote:I would expect the missile stockpiles would have been among the general infrastructure that was wrecked in Oyster Bay. At mentioned, since missiles are essentially enert, there's no reason to separate them out from the shipyards and transfer stations.

There were undoubtedly some completed missiles destroyed by Oyster Bay, but your argument seems to assume that Home Fleet had most of the RMN's missiles in their stockpile.

Given transit times to the various fleet bases outside of the Manticore binary system, that's probably a flawed assumption. As Cythia says, production probably went directy onto colliers or freighers for delivery to various fleets and bases closer to where the end users are stationed.

Storing missiles at the factory that builds them also runs into the problem of storage-space in a structure that is already at capacity so that new construction docks are being built as standalone, Grayson style "docks."

Weird Harold wrote:

noblehunter wrote:I would expect the missile stockpiles would have been among the general infrastructure that was wrecked in Oyster Bay. At mentioned, since missiles are essentially enert, there's no reason to separate them out from the shipyards and transfer stations.

There were undoubtedly some completed missiles destroyed by Oyster Bay, but your argument seems to assume that Home Fleet had most of the RMN's missiles in their stockpile.

Given transit times to the various fleet bases outside of the Manticore binary system, that's probably a flawed assumption. As Cythia says, production probably went directy onto colliers or freighers for delivery to various fleets and bases closer to where the end users are stationed.

Storing missiles at the factory that builds them also runs into the problem of storage-space in a structure that is already at capacity so that new construction docks are being built as standalone, Grayson style "docks."

They probably have orbital magazines either way out in Manticore-B Gorgon and Nibelung belts or parked in uninhabited star systems or maybe the use the uninhabited Matapan system as a weapon storage area. Also IIRC Mike Henke was musing about the fact that the RMN had 6 months of wartime production rates during the first Pritchart peace talks.

I expect any strategic reserve for missiles to be in the Manticore system because the Junction means munitions transferring from one base to another will likely have to pass through it to get to where they need to be. I expect any store of missiles to be deep enough within the hyper limit to keep an enemy from jumping in, slagging the stockpile, and jumping out. I expect it to be with the rest of their infrastructure so that Home Fleet doesn't have to uncover other high value targets to protect it.

While fleet bases would also have stockpiles, I doubt there would be enough to sustain offensive operations for an extended period. Especially not against a enemy as target rich as the Sollies or as tough as Haven.

I don't recall CLACs or LACs being lost in the Yawata strike. But surely LACs, being lost in such massive numbers, have to have a production line running overtime to replenish them. Where were LACs and CLACs built anyways? Hephaestus as well?

Yet I don't recall an inventory of either being lost. Lest I'm in error.

noblehunter wrote:I expect any strategic reserve for missiles to be in the Manticore system because the Junction means munitions transferring from one base to another will likely have to pass through it to get to where they need to be. I expect any store of missiles to be deep enough within the hyper limit to keep an enemy from jumping in, slagging the stockpile, and jumping out.

Unless your central supply is at the Junction it is still too far from the forces that might need them. Even then for anything other than the direct termini, your central supply is days, weeks, or months travel from the various forces that might need to rearm in a hurry.

If you have a central supply in the Manticore Binary System, it would logically be at the junction, under the protection of the junction Forts -- there is certainly a large store of Mk23 and/or Apollo pods just for the forts' use.

It makes no sense to stockpile more missiles than Home Fleet needs in Manticore orbit -- or Sphinx or Gryphon orbits -- when it takes time to resupply other fleets/task forces.

Weird Harold wrote:
Unless your central supply is at the Junction it is still too far from the forces that might need them. Even then for anything other than the direct termini, your central supply is days, weeks, or months travel from the various forces that might need to rearm in a hurry.

If you have a central supply in the Manticore Binary System, it would logically be at the junction, under the protection of the junction Forts -- there is certainly a large store of Mk23 and/or Apollo pods just for the forts' use.

It makes no sense to stockpile more missiles than Home Fleet needs in Manticore orbit -- or Sphinx or Gryphon orbits -- when it takes time to resupply other fleets/task forces.

I know that when oil prices are suitable, oil is additionally stored by loading carriers and having them make slow trips. If needed, they can be easily re-routed or sped. Communication times for the volume involved would be slower in the Honorverse, until an interstellar range FTL com is invented, so it is likely that for possible strategic reasons much of the ammunition would be stored by en-route ammunition carriers. We don't have enough background information to make a good guess as to the percentage.

If a task force several months away needs resupply, it is likely to be time critical and round trip times would not be wanted. I vote for moving produced missiles out in some network pattern based on likely transit times and estimated needs as soon as practical.

DDHvi wrote:If a task force several months away needs resupply, it is likely to be time critical and round trip times would not be wanted. I vote for moving produced missiles out in some network pattern based on likely transit times and estimated needs as soon as practical.

You can do a lot when you have instant communication and pretty much assured safety at sea. This reminds me of the idiots who want military logistics to work like Fedex. Get back to me on that when UPS starts compete with Fedex by shooting down Fedex planes.

You can see in SftS how the RMN plans missile logistics for a deployed SD force and it doesn't seem to involve ships blindly cruising around to meet up at some random spot months in the future.

We had a proposal to reduce our Avtur stocks to "Just in Time" standards. Two problems - aviation tanks in aircraft or on ground should as much as possible be kept full to stop condensation, and the obvious one of readiness to deploy at an instant's notice.

Never a shortage of stupidity from BYM (bright young men - recent graduates) at Headquarters.

kzt wrote:

DDHvi wrote:If a task force several months away needs resupply, it is likely to be time critical and round trip times would not be wanted. I vote for moving produced missiles out in some network pattern based on likely transit times and estimated needs as soon as practical.

You can do a lot when you have instant communication and pretty much assured safety at sea. This reminds me of the idiots who want military logistics to work like Fedex. Get back to me on that when UPS starts compete with Fedex by shooting down Fedex planes.

You can see in SftS how the RMN plans missile logistics for a deployed SD force and it doesn't seem to involve ships blindly cruising around to meet up at some random spot months in the future.

The only stockpiles they'd have are the newly minted missiles awaiting shipping, or possibly load outs for a ship that's about to commission.

And in the case of fresh load outs, I'd have an ammo ship dedicated to the purpose, that can either meet a ship as it comes out of the dock, or travel to the Grayson style dock and load as the finishing touches are donw, rather than try and load through a station.



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cthia wrote:I don't recall CLACs or LACs being lost in the Yawata strike. But surely LACs, being lost in such massive numbers, have to have a production line running overtime to replenish them. Where were LACs and CLACs built anyways? Hephaestus as well?

Yet I don't recall an inventory of either being lost. Lest I'm in error.

Ships which were not docked with a station were not targeted, only the stations and independent building slips were. There were some losses of ships which happened to be in the vicinity of the stations, and caught a graser or station chunk accidentally - we know of at least one completed Sag-c which died this way.

We have never been told the total ship losses outside of the tug, 2 CA-Ls and 3 DD-Ls mentioned, but if a CLAC was undergoing construction, repair, or replenishment at one of the stations - goodbye.

However, 1 salient point in this "were was ammo stored" debate is the survival of the ~70 Havenite SDs and CLACS, captured at BoMa, which were returned to Haven after the armistice. Obviously, if they survived, they were not co-located with one of the 3 stations, which suggests there there is another fleet "preserve" with at least the captured ships and probably the reserve. This proves there was at least 1 additional RMN "Fleet base" in the Manticore system, which was untouched by the strike. This anchorage may also be a site for additional munitions storage. The munitions are conjecture, but the location, and the ships of the reserve stored there, are obviously real.