Girandoni air rifle

Given that the church is restricted to black powder, I wonder hoe those rockets would fare against the armor on the Cities or the Haarahlds... Anybody got any ideas?

Don

-

evilauthor wrote:What exactly would Charis need gatling armed ships for? Shell fire is already perfectly serviceable as anti-personnel ammo and there's no aircraft that need to be shot down. Meanwhile, "hundreds of rounds per minute" is probably inadequate as point defense against katyusha missile storms.

I was thinking that something that could rapidly fire high-explosive shells would severely impact the screw-galley idea that the COGA are using,and send them back to the drawing-board altogether,as I don't see them being afloat for long under such a bombardment. If it could be elevated sufficiently it might make a good anti-rocket system as well,depending on how fragile the rockets are.

Michae wrote:

evilauthor wrote:What exactly would Charis need gatling armed ships for? Shell fire is already perfectly serviceable as anti-personnel ammo and there's no aircraft that need to be shot down. Meanwhile, "hundreds of rounds per minute" is probably inadequate as point defense against katyusha missile storms.

I was thinking that something that could rapidly fire high-explosive shells would severely impact the screw-galley idea that the COGA are using,and send them back to the drawing-board altogether,as I don't see them being afloat for long under such a bombardment. If it could be elevated sufficiently it might make a good anti-rocket system as well,depending on how fragile the rockets are.

Shells produced for Gattling guns would be awefully light and they would have to cope with those armored forecastles on the screw galleys. Probably the minimum needed would be those wire wound cannon on the Rotweillers. Dreadnaught probably would have destroyed the screw galleys all together had it not been for the distraction of the rest of the Dohlaran fleet. IIRC, those were 4" rifled cannon. Anything much less would simply bounce off.

By the time the screw galleys encounter the Cities, the guns are powerful enough to simply blow the screw galleys out of the water. That is not even to factor in the fact against a steam powered ironclad, they completely lose their speed and maneuverability advantage.

Don

-

evilauthor wrote:What exactly would Charis need gatling armed ships for?

n7axw wrote:Shells produced for Gattling guns would be awefully light and they would have to cope with those armored forecastles on the screw galleys. Probably the minimum needed would be those wire wound cannon on the Rotweillers.

Gatlings were usually rifle caliber -- fine for repelling boarders, but not terrible effective as anti-ship weapons. Not that I've seen any suggestion that ships be armed with only Gatlings.

The Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, OTOH, started at 37mm with HE shells, and went up form there to the vicinity of British six-pounder caliber -- roughly 4.5 inches or 10mm bore.

A Hotchkiss clone with a HEAT (High Explosive, Anti-Tank) round would probably deal with the screw-galley frontal armor just fine. (Probably in any caliber R/W Hotchkiss were built, certainly in the higher calibers.)

Other than repelling boarders, or developing HEAT rounds for rifled cannon or a Hotchkiss clone, there's not any pressing need for automatic weapons on Safehold at this time. I doubt that Charis can build an adequate point-defense weapon against rocket volleys with useful numbers of rockets.

Weird Harold wrote:

evilauthor wrote:What exactly would Charis need gatling armed ships for?

n7axw wrote:Shells produced for Gattling guns would be awefully light and they would have to cope with those armored forecastles on the screw galleys. Probably the minimum needed would be those wire wound cannon on the Rotweillers.

Gatlings were usually rifle caliber -- fine for repelling boarders, but not terrible effective as anti-ship weapons. Not that I've seen any suggestion that ships be armed with only Gatlings.

The Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, OTOH, started at 37mm with HE shells, and went up form there to the vicinity of British six-pounder caliber -- roughly 4.5 inches or 10mm bore.

A Hotchkiss clone with a HEAT (High Explosive, Anti-Tank) round would probably deal with the screw-galley frontal armor just fine. (Probably in any caliber R/W Hotchkiss were built, certainly in the higher calibers.)

Other than repelling boarders, or developing HEAT rounds for rifled cannon or a Hotchkiss clone, there's not any pressing need for automatic weapons on Safehold at this time. I doubt that Charis can build an adequate point-defense weapon against rocket volleys with useful numbers of rockets.

How effective would black powder be against the hardened steel armor Charis can produce? Apart from the method of delivery, would the warheads be any different than explosive shells?

Don

-

How would the rockets be different from explosive shells?

They wouldn't hit anything.

Are 50 calibre gatlings of some merit in warfare?

During WW2 Pacific there was a Marine Air unit, or so I am told, that took some number of aircraft used in ground attach roles and tested how many machine guns they could mount on one, with the aircraft still able to perform its mission. The answer was "lots". They were used to attack Japanese surface ships, freighters and on at least one occasion a destroyed, with or so I was told dramatic results. The incoming small rounds wiped out deck crew, folks manning the unarmored AA guns, bridge crew and bridge, and set lots of fires.

Against wooden ships and ships using sails, there is considerable merit.

phillies wrote:How would the rockets be different from explosive shells?

They wouldn't hit anything.

Are 50 calibre gatlings of some merit in warfare?

During WW2 Pacific there was a Marine Air unit, or so I am told, that took some number of aircraft used in ground attach roles and tested how many machine guns they could mount on one, with the aircraft still able to perform its mission. The answer was "lots". They were used to attack Japanese surface ships, freighters and on at least one occasion a destroyed, with or so I was told dramatic results. The incoming small rounds wiped out deck crew, folks manning the unarmored AA guns, bridge crew and bridge, and set lots of fires.

Against wooden ships and ships using sails, there is considerable merit.

I can see where gatlings against galleons could be very effective for personnel surpression and could pretty well tear up rigging. The original idea, however, was against screw galleys where they would be ineffective against the armored forcastles as long as they kept the screw galley's armored bow pointed toward the gatling gun.

A flight of a couple hundred rockets pointed in the direction of a galleon would pretty much ruin the galleon's day. They are not particularly accurate individually, but they would be potent area coverage weapons.

My question had to do with how effective rockets with black powder warheads would be against Howsmynized armor. I do know that the inner circle was concerned about plunging fire on the Harahlds' thinly armored decks. But otherwise, I don't remember an answer to the question. My suspicion would be not very effective.

Just a further comment, here... At this point any rockets used would have to be land based and set up as shore defenses. No one has designed and built a ship yet that would allow rockets to be safely launched in useful numbers to do enough good to be worthwhile.

Don

-

Depending on how much free deck space the King Hahrolds(?) have they might be able to do it. They would likely need some modification to make it "safe" to do so.

Weird Harold wrote:The problem with Gatling/Hotchkiss revolving cannon -- and really with any crew served heavy "machine gun" -- is that they are Crew Served; only really suitable for defensive positions, like fortresses or ships.

If I remember correctly there was an incident in the Spanish-American war where Gatling guns were used to suppress Spanish artillery in support of attacking troops.

Also there are nearly a million Harchongese soldiers coming at Charisian/Siddarmarkian forces. Having some automatic weapons available to suppress advancing enemy soldiers might help. Doubt they will get their in time though, so it will be up to the artillery.

Astelon wrote:Depending on how much free deck space the King Hahrolds(?) have they might be able to do it. They would likely need some modification to make it "safe" to do so.

Weird Harold wrote:The problem with Gatling/Hotchkiss revolving cannon -- and really with any crew served heavy "machine gun" -- is that they are Crew Served; only really suitable for defensive positions, like fortresses or ships.

If I remember correctly there was an incident in the Spanish-American war where Gatling guns were used to suppress Spanish artillery in support of attacking troops.

Also there are nearly a million Harchongese soldiers coming at Charisian/Siddarmarkian forces. Having some automatic weapons available to suppress advancing enemy soldiers might help. Doubt they will get their in time though, so it will be up to the artillery.

With some exceptions, it has been up to the artillery for the entire series...both on land and sea.

Don

-

Astelon wrote:If I remember correctly there was an incident in the Spanish-American war where Gatling guns were used to suppress Spanish artillery in support of attacking troops.

There are several historic examples of Gatlings (or other heavy "machine gun") making a difference in battles. The same can be said for light or heavy cannon and rocket batteries. That doesn't necessarily mean there couldn't have been a better solution.

Astelon wrote:Also there are nearly a million Harchongese soldiers coming at Charisian/Siddarmarkian forces. Having some automatic weapons available to suppress advancing enemy soldiers might help. Doubt they will get their in time though, so it will be up to the artillery.

Which would be more effective?

3000 troops manning 1000 Gatlings for a total of 600,000 Rounds-per-minute?

or

3000 troops with AK Clones or BAR clones for a total of 1,800,000 rounds-per-minute?

Neither is going to happen in the near future, and Charis couldn't provide enough ammo to support either weight-of-fire in the near future, but for the next war...

On a steamship, a revolving Hotchkiss of about 40mm to 55mm would have big enough projectiles to build shaped charge/armor piercing ammo. By the time such are available, smokeless powder and TNT should be available to make the shaped charge version practical.

For immediate use, any ship with rifled cannon could fire an armor-piercing round with a steel core or armor-piercing flechette in a sabot. Even the CoGA could build armor-piercing flechette sabot rounds to fire from even smooth-bore cannon. The steel core option would require rifling for spin stabilization, but that, too, is within the capabilities of any Safehold combatant.

n7axw wrote:My question had to do with how effective rockets with black powder warheads would be against Howsmynized armor.

That would depend on the sized of the rocket and the design of the warhead. For any chance of effectiveness, the warhead would have to be pretty big and incorporate some degree of "shape." Steel-core or similar warheads would be far more effective -- especially if one were to penetrate a boiler.