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Re: Infrastructure
Post by The E   » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:23 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:
It wouldn't take nasty-mindedness - it'd take a serious medical condition in need of institutionalization and treatment. Or at least, reading a story, a wildly excessive idea of how omnipresent the Alignment's operatives are.


No, think about it.

The MAlign's strategic objective is the abolishment of the Beowulf code. Mesa went into the gene-modded slave business in order to do two things, to perfect the techniques used to create new lines, and to offer a very visible counterpoint to the Beowulf code.
Right now, with the SL on the verge of disintegration, with forces within and without hammering at the foundations, they're very close to achieving their goals. But there are a few things they need to do in order to achieve their primary objective. One of these things is to remove the stigma of genemodding as a slaver's tool, and the best way to do that is to abandon slavery. Since this can't be done peacefully (well, it could be done, but it would take ages), offering Mesa as a sacrifice and allowing it to fall while at the same time setting up the Renaissance factor (which is already primed to be more liberal in terms of interpreting the Beowulf code) is necessary. Doing so achieves two objectives: One, it lulls Beowulf and other anti-slavery states for a bit. Two, it creates a bunch of genemodded ex-slaves who are now going to spread into the galaxy, increasing the ratio of normals to genies on at least a few worlds.
Now, how could one engineer the fall of Mesa? The MAlign already counts on Beowulf to settle scores when the SL disintegrates, but it certainly can't hurt to have a few internal fights as well. After all, if Beowulf or others have an excuse to invade Mesa to "restore the peace", why, that's just so much better. The evil mesan megacorps fall under the force of a popular uprising backed by external forces, and everyone's happy while the MAlign retreats to Darius or the Renaissance Factor worlds.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:05 am

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The E wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:
It wouldn't take nasty-mindedness - it'd take a serious medical condition in need of institutionalization and treatment. Or at least, reading a story, a wildly excessive idea of how omnipresent the Alignment's operatives are.


No, think about it.

The MAlign's strategic objective is the abolishment of the Beowulf code. Mesa went into the gene-modded slave business in order to do two things, to perfect the techniques used to create new lines, and to offer a very visible counterpoint to the Beowulf code.
Right now, with the SL on the verge of disintegration, with forces within and without hammering at the foundations, they're very close to achieving their goals. But there are a few things they need to do in order to achieve their primary objective. One of these things is to remove the stigma of genemodding as a slaver's tool, and the best way to do that is to abandon slavery. Since this can't be done peacefully (well, it could be done, but it would take ages), offering Mesa as a sacrifice and allowing it to fall while at the same time setting up the Renaissance factor (which is already primed to be more liberal in terms of interpreting the Beowulf code) is necessary. Doing so achieves two objectives: One, it lulls Beowulf and other anti-slavery states for a bit. Two, it creates a bunch of genemodded ex-slaves who are now going to spread into the galaxy, increasing the ratio of normals to genies on at least a few worlds.
Now, how could one engineer the fall of Mesa? The MAlign already counts on Beowulf to settle scores when the SL disintegrates, but it certainly can't hurt to have a few internal fights as well. After all, if Beowulf or others have an excuse to invade Mesa to "restore the peace", why, that's just so much better. The evil mesan megacorps fall under the force of a popular uprising backed by external forces, and everyone's happy while the MAlign retreats to Darius or the Renaissance Factor worlds.


Good plan but ruined by the information brought back by the dynamic duo. The universe knows the onion exists.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:57 am

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We know that the Alignment had always planned for Mesa to fall and "take the fall" for genetic slavery. The Houdini plan, as originally unveiled to us and then the accelerated plan make that clear. Look at the mindset of what they are doing. Oyster Bay was not only the attack on the military and manufacturing stations at Manticore and Grayson, it also anticipated and fluffed off the "collateral" damage of the debris hitting the planets in Manticore and approached it as "too bad but it wasn't a DELIBERATE EE planetary attack"

It would appear that the Alignment had been looking for a long time with the idea of setting up a secret and remote planetary base - and now have Darius- which takes the people and industrial manufacturing capasity out of harm's way. The loss of Mesa is a contrived misdirection to wipe clean their trail. Exactly how Mesa was to fall and when (the when part annoying the Alignment at the moment) seems to have been left sort of open though it was probably anticipated that some group alligned with anti-slavery would be the device to do it. The important thing was that it became a fat and bright target with the presumption that it's fall would appear to be the destruction of the whole genetic slave industry and almost all of the major and minor participants and leadership. That it was cover for an entire political, philosophical and genetic empire was supposed to vanish without anybody even suspecting that the Alignment existed.

Look at how Albrect Detweiler operates. Hell, look at the organizations that form the boundries and decisions about what goes on with him. The Planning Board? He and his bio-engineer wife are subject to the same sort of manipulation and thinking that Herlander was. It would appear that there are puppetmasters for the puppetmasters.

So the Alignment planned -over a long time and in considerable detail- how to get what they needed in the way of people (the equipment and knowledge was already gone) off Mesa at the probable cost of much of it's population. A slave rebellion would be anticipated at some point when the wheels came off the planitary government and the resulting slaughter and destruction coupled with whatever the invading/attacking force would do from the outside was supposed to cover the Alignment by killing and destroying on a planitary level. Really nice plan if you are a genetic super race and truly consider the rest of humanity as very much less than just tools. Disposable.

The RF is just another toolset. They have a purpose in the plan. The Alignment will probably continue to try and operate at just outside the boundry of knowlege of what is going on if it wants to survive. They now have a lot of very capable people looking for them even if those same people have other life-threatening things facing them now.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by Joat42   » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:08 pm

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Daryl wrote:
The E wrote:...snip...
The evil mesan megacorps fall under the force of a popular uprising backed by external forces, and everyone's happy while the MAlign retreats to Darius or the Renaissance Factor worlds.


Good plan but ruined by the information brought back by the dynamic duo. The universe knows the onion exists.

Also, I think the GA will search high and low for those spider-ships used to attack Manticore, and so far they haven't found the shipyards that manufactured them which is a big hint that Mesa is just a front.

Until they are satisfied they have peeled the whole onion they will keep looking for the culprits.

---
Jack of all trades and destructive tinkerer.


Anyone who have simple solutions for complex problems is a fool.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:00 am

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I'm trying to ponder the ramifications of Oyster Bay. It seems that someone at war as long as Manticore has been would have had at least a rudimentary contingency plan ready to be set in motion.

The American industrial might went into full-on production mode after Pearl Harbor. It seems that a planet wide production frenzy should have been set off on Manticore like pissed off army ants.

Shouldn't there always be an on-planet production facility high in the mountains somewhere ready to do it the "modernized old-fashioned" way?

Space stations are snap together kits by then. lol

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:57 am

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Oyster Bay did more than destroy the infrastucture for Manticore and the shipbuilding/manufacturing for Grayson.

We see White Haven and the PM talking about plans and designs and a timeframe to rebuild -and expand and add multiple stations- to what will become Manticore's infrastructure. Sadly we have not yet seen any real conversation from Grayson

What RFC keeps coming back to and has been hammering at us is the loss of the people that the stirke had in both Manticore and Grayson. The people who actually did the work in the factories, supervised the work, designed and updated the equipment, maintained the equipment, built the ships, referbushed the ships,managed the work and operations, trained the people to do the work.

People tend to forget, if they ever looked or read about it, that the US had already been ramping up industrial prodution in war related materials well before Pearl Harbor. Lend-Lease was NOT just about trading 50 really old destroyers to the British Empire for basing rights and money. The US was selling England all sorts of stuff and American business was doing the same thing. In highschool, in the two years before Pearl Harbor, my father and uncle were both working summer jobs making guns. Dad worked at High Standard and Joe worked at Marlin. Both of them worked on parts for machineguns (under British contracts and chambered for .303 which was a standard British military round. High Standard was also making pistols.

What happened after Pearl Harbor was the massive shift from civilian/commercial goods to "military" goods. Smith Corona- the people best known for typewriters, was still making typerwriters but they were also making (at first) bolt action Springfield rifles in .30-06 and other clearly weapon or military use stuff. Not that typewriters arn't/weren't a critical part of the war effort, it is just that none of the production was going to the civilian side.

All sorts of production shifted to the war effort. Sure, a lot of people got trained to do new things but.....and the point RFC hammers on....is the the US HAD the people both already in the industries or able to enter the industries to be trained or just switch what they were making. All those men (and women) who were not going into the military were at work. In Oyster Bay, effectivly most of the manufacturing and support people from the space-born manufacturing industries are just GONE.
Sure, there are a Billion or more people still living in the Manticore system (not counting the Navy) but how many of them have the EXISTING skills to manufacture and/or supervise the rebuilding of the orbital infrasturcture and manufacturing. That question also relates to how many of those potential new orbital workforce have even basic skills for living, let alone working, in space?

It is not that Manticore and Grayson didn't have good sets of plans for defending either the orbital or the workforce (there have been evacuation plans demonstrated in earlier books that show they existed and -when implimented worked- and there were probably recovery plans. The problem was that the weapons and method used to make the Oyster Bay strikes were effectively undetectable because the massive sensor and defensive nets in the systems could not detect the strike until they had to deal with the results. We still don't have a picture to show Manticore knows how to detect the spider drives.
They are going to rebuild but they currently look like they will have to maintain shielding -heavy shielding- at all times and use some sort of baffle system to allow movement to and from instalations
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by saber964   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:35 pm

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cthia wrote:I'm trying to ponder the ramifications of Oyster Bay. It seems that someone at war as long as Manticore has been would have had at least a rudimentary contingency plan ready to be set in motion.

The American industrial might went into full-on production mode after Pearl Harbor. It seems that a planet wide production frenzy should have been set off on Manticore like pissed off army ants.

Shouldn't there always be an on-planet production facility high in the mountains somewhere ready to do it the "modernized old-fashioned" way?

Space stations are snap together kits by then. lol



Actually no on America going on a war footing after Pearl Harbor, the U.S. had been on an effective war footing since early 1940 and had been building up to it since early 39. IIRC in the summer of 1940 the U.S. military nationalized 10 national guard divisions IIRC they were the 26, 27, 28, 29, 36, 37, 41, 42, 43 and 45 divisions. The U.S. Navy had or was in the process of laying down 6 CV, 6 BB, 60 DD and 20-30 SS. Also don't forget the destroyer for bases deal took place in 1940.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:16 pm

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saber964 wrote:
cthia wrote:I'm trying to ponder the ramifications of Oyster Bay. It seems that someone at war as long as Manticore has been would have had at least a rudimentary contingency plan ready to be set in motion.

The American industrial might went into full-on production mode after Pearl Harbor. It seems that a planet wide production frenzy should have been set off on Manticore like pissed off army ants.

Shouldn't there always be an on-planet production facility high in the mountains somewhere ready to do it the "modernized old-fashioned" way?

Space stations are snap together kits by then. lol



Actually no on America going on a war footing after Pearl Harbor, the U.S. had been on an effective war footing since early 1940 and had been building up to it since early 39. IIRC in the summer of 1940 the U.S. military nationalized 10 national guard divisions IIRC they were the 26, 27, 28, 29, 36, 37, 41, 42, 43 and 45 divisions. The U.S. Navy had or was in the process of laying down 6 CV, 6 BB, 60 DD and 20-30 SS. Also don't forget the destroyer for bases deal took place in 1940.



****** *



I read somewhere that American production capability was idling at less than twenty five percent of potential capacity before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. I was only insinuating that that seventy-five percent gap closed quickly after Pearl Harbor.


Think of the same in-place on-planet production capability of Manticore that is idling, yet could be turned towards the war effort.

“Powerful enemies must be out-fought and out-produced,” President Franklin Roosevelt told Congress and his countrymen less than a month after Pearl Harbor. “It is not enough to turn out just a few more planes, a few more tanks, a few more guns, a few more ships than can be turned out by our enemies,” he said. “We must out-produce them overwhelmingly, so that there can be no question of our ability to provide a crushing superiority of equipment in any theatre of the world war.”

Two years earlier, America’s military preparedness was not that of a nation expecting to go to war. In 1939, the United States Army ranked thirty-ninth in the world, possessing a cavalry force of fifty thousand and using horses to pull the artillery. Many Americans — still trying to recover from the decade-long ordeal of the Great Depression — were reluctant to participate in the conflict that was spreading throughout Europe and Asia. President Roosevelt did what he could to coax a reluctant nation to focus its economic might on military preparedness. If the American military wasn’t yet equal to the Germans or the Japanese, American workers could build ships and planes faster than the enemy could sink them or shoot them down.

In the wake of Pearl Harbor, the president set staggering goals for the nation’s factories: 60,000 aircraft in 1942 and 125,000 in 1943; 120,000 tanks in the same time period and 55,000 antiaircraft guns. In an attempt to coordinate government war agencies Roosevelt created the War Production Board in 1942 and later in 1943 the Office of War Mobilization. To raise money for defense, the government relied on a number of techniques — calling on the American people to ration certain commodities, generating more tax revenue by lowering the personal exemption and selling government war bonds to individuals and financial institutions. All of these methods served to provide the government with revenue and at the same time keep inflation under control.

War production profoundly changed American industry. Companies already engaged in defense work expanded. Others, like the automobile industry, were transformed completely. In 1941, more than three million cars were manufactured in the United States. Only 139 more were made during the entire war. Instead, Chrysler made fuselages. General Motors made airplane engines, guns, trucks and tanks. Packard made Rolls-Royce engines for the British air force. And at its vast Willow Run plant in Ypsilanti, Michigan, the Ford Motor Company performed something like a miracle 24-hours a day. The average Ford car had some 15,000 parts. The B-24 Liberator long-range bomber had 1,550,000. One came off the line every 63 minutes.

America launched more vessels in 1941 than Japan did in the entire war. Shipyards turned out tonnage so fast that by the autumn of 1943 all Allied shipping sunk since 1939 had been replaced. In 1944 alone, the United States built more planes than the Japanese did from 1939 to 1945. By the end of the war, more than half of all industrial production in the world would take place in the United States.

Wartime production boomed as citizens flocked to meet the demand for labor. Tensions were often high between labor unions, which in spite of no-strike pledges felt the need to protect worker’s rights and could not stop strikes altogether, and citizens were outraged to hear of any work stoppages. In one instance when the United Mine Workers went on strike in 1943, newspapers condemned the miners as traitors. On June 25, 1943, Congress passed the War Labor Disputes (Smith-Connally) Act that authorized the President to take over plants needed for the war effort or in which war production had ceased because of a labor dispute.

While 16 million men and women marched to war, 24 million more moved in search of defense jobs, often for more pay than they previously had ever earned. Eight million women stepped into the work force and ethnic groups such as African Americans and Latinos found job opportunities as never before.

“Most of the people who got out of high school if they were female and didn’t go to the war, they went to Mobile,” said Emma Belle Petcher, who moved to the city from the tiny town of Millry, Alabama. “That was the place to go and get a job. And there were all kinds of jobs.”

World War II utterly transformed Mobile and its economy. The explosion began in the late 1930s, when local companies such as Alcoa began producing war materiel for Japan and European countries. Local shipyards won contracts to build Liberty ships and destroyers in 1940, and by the time America entered the war in late 1941, Mobile was already booming. The Alcoa plant processed millions of pounds of alumina used to build many of the 304,000 airplanes America produced during the war; the Waterman Steamship Company boasted one of the nation’s largest merchant fleets, and Mobile became one of the busiest shipping and shipbuilding ports in the nation. In 1940, Gulf Shipbuilding had had 240 employees; by 1943, it had 11,600. Alabama Dry Dock went from 1,000 workers to almost 30,000.

Like the shipyards in Mobile and plane-repair facilities near Sacramento, factories in Waterbury, Connecticut were transformed to keep up with the war. The Mattatuck Manufacturing Company switched from making upholstery nails to cartridge clips for the Springfield rifle, and soon was turning out three million clips a week. The American Brass Company made more than two billion pounds of brass rods, sheets and tubes during the war. The Chase Brass and Copper Company made more than 50 million cartridge cases and mortar shells, more than a billion small caliber bullets and, eventually, components used in the atomic bomb.

Scovill Manufacturing produced so many different military items, the Waterbury Republican reported, that “there wasn’t an American or British fighting man … who wasn’t dependent on [the company] for some part of the food, clothing, shelter and equipment that sustained [him] through the … struggle.”

Many factories ran around the clock. “It was seven days a week,” said Clyde Odom of Mobile. “And during the war when it was so strong, it was twelve-hour days five days a week, ten hours on Saturday, eight hours on Sunday, you felt like you've had a week off. And that went in and out, over, over and over and over.”

“Money seemed to be the least of the concerns,” Ray Leopold of Waterbury said. “The thing was to produce material that will win the war and bring their boys home.”
With the economy booming, Americans felt their lives improving.

“Things started getting better and better and better for the people who had to stay behind,” Sacramento’s William Perkins said. “People were doing real good economically. And it was a big boost from the end of the Depression up until the war ended and it just rolled on.”

http://www.pbs.org/thewar/at_home_war_production.htm

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by saber964   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:47 pm

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The 75% slack was the U.S. economy converting to wartime production. Which took place throughout 1942. Companies converted to war production that had never produced any type of military equipment e.g. Singer Sewing Machine CO started manufacturing machine guns, American Casket built WACO and Horsa gliders, Goodyear tire and rubber built several types of aircraft besides tires. FYI the last civilian car rolled off the line in November 1942 after that, the car plant was building tanks and APCs.
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Re: Infrastructure
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:10 pm

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saber964 wrote:The 75% slack was the U.S. economy converting to wartime production. Which took place throughout 1942. Companies converted to war production that had never produced any type of military equipment e.g. Singer Sewing Machine CO started manufacturing machine guns, American Casket built WACO and Horsa gliders, Goodyear tire and rubber built several types of aircraft besides tires. FYI the last civilian car rolled off the line in November 1942 after that, the car plant was building tanks and APCs.

Exactly!

Don't forget about the many US factories that were not being used, at the time, that were given new life.

Now, let's project that same phenomena onto the 75 % of the idle Manticoran economy converting to wartime production. Manticore & Sphinx.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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