Hidden Order in Siddarmark

I doubt that it would be another hidden order, but I've often wondered if there isn't more to Nynian/Aivah than she has revealed. A couple of reasons jumped out at me. 1. How did she evade the sentinels to get into Merlin's quarters? 2. What about her photographic memory?

No 1 was never explained, and No 2 was sort of explained, but it sounded more like myth than reality.

I think she may end up being even more than what we think.

TBird50 wrote:I doubt that it would be another hidden order, but I've often wondered if there isn't more to Nynian/Aivah than she has revealed. A couple of reasons jumped out at me. 1. How did she evade the sentinels to get into Merlin's quarters? 2. What about her photographic memory?

No 1 was never explained, and No 2 was sort of explained, but it sounded more like myth than reality.

I think she may end up being even more than what we think.

All conjecture one way or the other...

There are people in real life with photographic memories...

I am not one of them. But my, that would be useful!

Don

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Any TF manufacturing facility would have been at least shielded against TF level scans and searching. Anything the Archangels or the Fallen might have still had set up might not be actually running but it would have been shielded against AT LEAST the other side looking for it even if it was running at some low power or low production rate. So it would be under or in something that would be a non-trivial excercise to get at with anything that humans without mechanical aids could be expected to produce. Certainly not put it anywhere any mineral ore or other "interesting" materials could be found by surface exploration.

If it was also hardened and protected against kinetic bombardment, that is going to be one tough nut to crack. Nimue's cave come to mind. You could also put something undersea in a techtonicaly stable area and below 1,000 ft of water, humans aren't going to find it.

The question becomes who put what where and why? Also why the Archangels would put something on the planet at all other than the temple if you want to keep all that tech out of the hands of the Safeholdian population. Much safer to do your manufacturing where nobody is going to reach it. Get sneaky and park the entities that are supposed to Return for the 1000, yr check-up out in a base built into an asteroid (in a lonely, stable orbit) and they could hang in the high orbital reaches of the planet and observe with servitors and drones if they don't get what they want from the mechanisms and probably AI in the Temple when they request a report.

If any TF manufacturing does exist,would it be possible to use it covertly to assist with manufacturing,as it would help with the backlog of things that need to be produced. Or would it require electrical power to get them running?

Brigade XO wrote:Any TF manufacturing facility would have been at least shielded against TF level scans and searching. Anything the Archangels or the Fallen might have still had set up might not be actually running but it would have been shielded against AT LEAST the other side looking for it even if it was running at some low power or low production rate. So it would be under or in something that would be a non-trivial excercise to get at with anything that humans without mechanical aids could be expected to produce. Certainly not put it anywhere any mineral ore or other "interesting" materials could be found by surface exploration.

If it was also hardened and protected against kinetic bombardment, that is going to be one tough nut to crack. Nimue's cave come to mind. You could also put something undersea in a techtonicaly stable area and below 1,000 ft of water, humans aren't going to find it.

The question becomes who put what where and why? Also why the Archangels would put something on the planet at all other than the temple if you want to keep all that tech out of the hands of the Safeholdian population. Much safer to do your manufacturing where nobody is going to reach it. Get sneaky and park the entities that are supposed to Return for the 1000, yr check-up out in a base built into an asteroid (in a lonely, stable orbit) and they could hang in the high orbital reaches of the planet and observe with servitors and drones if they don't get what they want from the mechanisms and probably AI in the Temple when they request a report.

If an industrial module is found, it will be the Fallen that hid it, not the Archangels. As you say, the agenda would have been to keep tech off of Safehold and out of the hands of the population,

Howver we know that there is TF tech within the Temple and its environs that was left behind by the command crew.

Don

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Expert snuggler wrote:Gunpowder suggests a lot of backstory!

For one thing, how did they find out the recipe? Experimentation?! That kind of experimentation is against the spirit if not the letter of the Proscriptions. If they found it written down somewhere, what else is in that source?

That's been suspicious to me for a while too. Not only is it against the spirit of the Proscriptions, the 'everything is explained' nature of the Writ doesn't leave much reason for the kind of experimentation that led to gunpowder in real life. (It came out of the Taoist 'alchemical' tradition, but nothing like that should exist on Safehold.)

cralkhi wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:Gunpowder suggests a lot of backstory!

For one thing, how did they find out the recipe? Experimentation?! That kind of experimentation is against the spirit if not the letter of the Proscriptions. If they found it written down somewhere, what else is in that source?

That's been suspicious to me for a while too. Not only is it against the spirit of the Proscriptions, the 'everything is explained' nature of the Writ doesn't leave much reason for the kind of experimentation that led to gunpowder in real life. (It came out of the Taoist 'alchemical' tradition, but nothing like that should exist on Safehold.)

We may have to accept some authorial hand-waving on that one. The path of technical development would have been much different without preexisting knowledge of gunpowder and at least a rudimentary firearm (and foundry) base. And the tech imbalance would have been immediate and overwhelming without that knowledge being -worldwide-.

CanoeSage wrote:We may have to accept some authorial hand-waving on that one. The path of technical development would have been much different without preexisting knowledge of gunpowder and at least a rudimentary firearm (and foundry) base.

Quite possibly. But it could also be a hint.

And the tech imbalance would have been immediate and overwhelming without that knowledge being -worldwide-.

Eh... maybe. It took a long time after the invention of gunpowder - 600 years or so - for guns to become dominant over bows, pikes etc.

That's one of the other things that makes me suspicious - not just the invention of gunpowder, but that it was developed as a useful weapon much faster than on Earth. There weren't practical guns eighty years after gunpowder was invented...

cralkhi wrote:

And the tech imbalance would have been immediate and overwhelming without that knowledge being -worldwide-.

Eh... maybe. It took a long time after the invention of gunpowder - 600 years or so - for guns to become dominant over bows, pikes etc.

That's one of the other things that makes me suspicious - not just the invention of gunpowder, but that it was developed as a useful weapon much faster than on Earth. There weren't practical guns eighty years after gunpowder was invented...

Two points -

First, Safehold had craftsmanship, plumbing, metal-crafting, general infrastructure all right at the edge of Industrial Revolution levels when gunpowder appeared, and practically since the Day of Creation. So everything to support the most effective use of gunpowder when it appeared was ready and waiting. Pre-Merlin Safehold isn't well-modeled by pre-gunpowder Europe - it's better modeled by Europe in 1800, minus the latest mathematics, any use of electricity, any use of steam for power, and some of the latest tricks with gunpowder, plus much better communications and a whole planet at that approximate tech level, with much better sanitation, medicine and public education. (Late 1800's Europe would be a better comparison for those elements.)

Second, pre-Merlin, gunpowder weapons weren't all that practical still. Cavalry ruled the field with lance, saber and bow where the pike did not; missile weapons were bows, crossbows, slings, and the occasional new-fangled musket. The musket was getting to see use at all mostly because it didn't require the skill the others did, so you if you could raise and keep a large-ish army in a hurry, they could use it. Rate of fire and accuracy were abysmal - same went for cannon, which were huge and ungainly. Galleys had a few as practically one-use-per-battle approach weapons before things got settled with ramming and boarding. Galleons weren't used as warships, because they didn't have adequate guns for fighting, they can't ram or board well enough, and there wasn't enough will to fight or call for it far away or off-shore where galleys would be impractical.

6L6 wrote:I think that the last book might expose another hidden order in Siddarmark, like Saint Zherneau's and Saint Kohdy's. Protector Stohnar could be in the know. That would make an interesting scene with Cayleb and Greghor confiding in each other. What say you all?

I think Siddarmark being a Republic is strongly suggestive of being the result of some secret order. Not necessarily positive proof mind, since as far as I'm aware, none of the republics on Earth came about as a result of the machinations of a secret order that predated creation! However I don't think it's necessarily the case that said secret order still exists, or if it still exists, has any real power or influence. The "republican tradition" seems to be pretty ingrained in Siddarmark at this point and thus not necessarily requiring any active management to keep it on track.

Harchong being the result of another secret order that took completely the opposite approach to overthrowing the Church is an interesting idea. Also entirely possible, but I think we should be wary of seeing secret orders under every bed.