Honorverse ramblings and musings

Somtaaw wrote:
Now I'll admit, so far as we've seen neither Shrikes nor Ferrets load, or are even capable of firing Vipers. We've only seen the evidence that Katana's, and "newer construction" for hyper-capable ships fire Vipers. The newer construction could imply refitted LAC's are capable, if so refitted.

Since Manticore never really stopped building Shrikes or Ferrets up until Oyster Bay, I bet there is a break point where they switched the production line over to Mk 32s/Vipers. It would be stupid not to switch to a smaller CM (for more CMs/loadout) and have the option of the best anti-LAC missile (at the expense of some CMs).

Louis R wrote:It's rather trickier than that: LACs don't [currently] carry any telemetry-relay kit, so they can't fire at targets covered by their own wedges unless they are content to shoot blind.

Don't forget the LAC missile is a single drive missile, and the attack profiles usually have the LACS firing missiles well into their attack range - they may just accept slightly worse numbers with the birds in autonomous mode - OR they could have targeting passoffs planned to other ships (Ferrets) further back in the formation, before they too are forced to kick the ECM up to 11 and roll wedge.

I know I should remember this, but I don't. Please forgive...

What is the order of attack of Ferrets, Shrikes and Katanas? Or does it depend on the situation even if all three LAC variants are present?

cthia wrote:...does it depend on the situation even if all three LAC variants are present?

Yes

Salamander on Prolong

http://www.thenewsgirlsclub.com/world-n ... -in-china/

cthia wrote:I know I should remember this, but I don't. Please forgive...

What is the order of attack of Ferrets, Shrikes and Katanas? Or does it depend on the situation even if all three LAC variants are present?

Shrikes rely on Ferrets degrading the defenses and sensors. Otherwise they get slaughtered. See BoM.

The LACs which survived the exchange were a broken force, streaming through and past Tourville's surviving superdreadnoughts so rapidly not even the Shrikes had time to inflict significant damage on such massively armored targets.
...
"It looks like only about two hundred of their LACs got away," his chief of staff said. "The wall's energy weapons managed to nail most of the others as they crossed our vector."

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:I know I should remember this, but I don't. Please forgive...

What is the order of attack of Ferrets, Shrikes and Katanas? Or does it depend on the situation even if all three LAC variants are present?

Shrikes rely on Ferrets degrading the defenses and sensors. Otherwise they get slaughtered. See BoM.

The general order of attack was covered in Ashes of Victory I think. Find the point where Scotty meets Truman, and she gives him command of some LAC groups. Think it was some of their training exercises, and Scotty was mentioning it to.. Stu I think?

Generally speaking:
Shrikes are low on missiles due to the size of their graser. Their targets of choice are basically battlecruisers or above, because their graser is the only LAC sized weapon that can truly hurt capital ships.

Ferrets are missile boats, and feature much larger ECM suites than Shrikes. They also carry something like double the countermissiles of Shrikes, and their job is to cover the Shrikes with their ECM and CM loadouts against larger targets. Ferret missiles have sufficient power to destroy even heavy cruisers, if they can get past the active defenses. But Ferret missiles are too small to do more than scratch the paint of capital ships, so original doctrine was to have them break off before entering energy range of wallers.


Katana's are obviously anti-LAC, and with their trio of superdreadnought PDLC's, they also have superb point defense to aid in missile defense without being forced to launch Vipers in that role.


All Manticoran LAC's can operate in missile defense for the wall, but Ferrets and particularly Katana's are far more efficient at it. Shrike's are seemingly the weakest of the trio in terms of belonging anymore, they can't do missile defense and they're only scary initially (see Havenite response to Buttercup offensive). Yes their grasers can get quite a few kills on LACs, but Katana's kill LAC's even faster, and take less losses because they have smaller mass, higher agility and faster acceleration.

Somtaaw wrote:

kzt wrote:Shrikes rely on Ferrets degrading the defenses and sensors. Otherwise they get slaughtered. See BoM.

The general order of attack was covered in Ashes of Victory I think. Find the point where Scotty meets Truman, and she gives him command of some LAC groups. Think it was some of their training exercises, and Scotty was mentioning it to.. Stu I think?

Generally speaking:
Shrikes are low on missiles due to the size of their graser. Their targets of choice are basically battlecruisers or above, because their graser is the only LAC sized weapon that can truly hurt capital ships.

Ferrets are missile boats, and feature much larger ECM suites than Shrikes. They also carry something like double the countermissiles of Shrikes, and their job is to cover the Shrikes with their ECM and CM loadouts against larger targets. Ferret missiles have sufficient power to destroy even heavy cruisers, if they can get past the active defenses. But Ferret missiles are too small to do more than scratch the paint of capital ships, so original doctrine was to have them break off before entering energy range of wallers.


Katana's are obviously anti-LAC, and with their trio of superdreadnought PDLC's, they also have superb point defense to aid in missile defense without being forced to launch Vipers in that role.


All Manticoran LAC's can operate in missile defense for the wall, but Ferrets and particularly Katana's are far more efficient at it. Shrike's are seemingly the weakest of the trio in terms of belonging anymore, they can't do missile defense and they're only scary initially (see Havenite response to Buttercup offensive). Yes their grasers can get quite a few kills on LACs, but Katana's kill LAC's even faster, and take less losses because they have smaller mass, higher agility and faster acceleration.

Shrikes are probably the best daily patrol/interdiction ship of the 3. If they came across a pirate... whatever the size, they would eviscerate it in numbers, with the Ferret as the 2nd best in that role.

I can see the system defense wings in Silesia to be heavy on Shrikes. Talbott's defense wings, with the larger chance of mixing it up with a real task force would be a mix of Shrikes and Ferrets, and maybe a squadron of Katannas or 2. In an area where one could expect a LAC armed enemy, the Katanna ratio would increase.

Wings in CLACs assigned to Batrons and Batcrurons would be at least 50% Katannas, with acouple Shrike/Ferret squadrons for dealing with any hyper scouts and independent med/lt starship formations the enemy fleet may have.

Wings in CLAC with independent acctions, probably have a more even loadout, with a third shrikes, third ferrets and third Katannas - at the very least, the Katannas will mind the store and defend the carriers (while the carriers chuck 24 MDMs at anything that comes close.)

Theemile wrote:Shrikes are probably the best daily patrol/interdiction ship of the 3. If they came across a pirate... whatever the size, they would eviscerate it in numbers, with the Ferret as the 2nd best in that role.

I can see the system defense wings in Silesia to be heavy on Shrikes. Talbott's defense wings, with the larger chance of mixing it up with a real task force would be a mix of Shrikes and Ferrets, and maybe a squadron of Katannas or 2. In an area where one could expect a LAC armed enemy, the Katanna ratio would increase.

I actually didn't even think of system interdiction

Yeah, Shrikes sound to be the best bet for system defense, with a mixture of Ferrets and Katana's for backup.

Theemile wrote:Wings in CLACs assigned to Batrons and Batcrurons would be at least 50% Katannas, with acouple Shrike/Ferret squadrons for dealing with any hyper scouts and independent med/lt starship formations the enemy fleet may have.

Wings in CLAC with independent acctions, probably have a more even loadout, with a third shrikes, third ferrets and third Katannas - at the very least, the Katannas will mind the store and defend the carriers (while the carriers chuck 24 MDMs at anything that comes close.)

Offensively, mixtures of solely Ferrets and Katana's are far better. Shrikes are more fragile, and really only bring, to use the Havenite phrase "that god awful graser they wrapped a LAC class around". With the emphasis on missile combat, and just how far Manticore has pushed missile advancement, energy weapons are distinctly less powerful.

And that's also excluding the minor thing that Solarian ships are heavier, ship for ship, on energy weapons than anything in the Haven sector. More energy weapons means better odds of getting those freak hits on LAC's due to probability theory. While the missile armed Ferrets can stay out at 'max range' from the Solarian (and possible MAlign) ships, and chewing them up slowly even without a podlayer rolling backup every 12 seconds for a double pattern.

Theemile wrote:Wings in CLAC with independent acctions, probably have a more even loadout, with a third shrikes, third ferrets and third Katannas - at the very least, the Katannas will mind the store and defend the carriers (while the carriers chuck 24 MDMs at anything that comes close.)

I'd actually think Shrikes would be better for close-in defense of an independent operation CLAC. Independent operations means that CLAC is the only way anybody is going home, so it's going to be swanning around outside the hyper limit. CLAC's primary defense against missiles is to hyper out and go to pre-designated rally points to pick up their LACs, which means they don't really need Katana's. Katana's would be lucky if they could kill small to mid-sized light cruisers, while Ferrets can kill upto heavy cruisers and Shrikes are scary into the battleship range.

Somtaaw wrote:
I'd actually think Shrikes would be better for close-in defense of an independent operation CLAC. Independent operations means that CLAC is the only way anybody is going home, so it's going to be swanning around outside the hyper limit. CLAC's primary defense against missiles is to hyper out and go to pre-designated rally points to pick up their LACs, which means they don't really need Katana's. Katana's would be lucky if they could kill small to mid-sized light cruisers, while Ferrets can kill upto heavy cruisers and Shrikes are scary into the battleship range.

I was thinking Katannas for missile defense for the CLAC while the CLAC showed whatever was moving in close the error of their ways - if 18-24 MDM salvos don't convince whoever to die or move off - the CLAC better plan on moving before entering single drive missile range.

Theemile wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:
I'd actually think Shrikes would be better for close-in defense of an independent operation CLAC. Independent operations means that CLAC is the only way anybody is going home, so it's going to be swanning around outside the hyper limit. CLAC's primary defense against missiles is to hyper out and go to pre-designated rally points to pick up their LACs, which means they don't really need Katana's. Katana's would be lucky if they could kill small to mid-sized light cruisers, while Ferrets can kill upto heavy cruisers and Shrikes are scary into the battleship range.

I was thinking Katannas for missile defense for the CLAC while the CLAC showed whatever was moving in close the error of their ways - if 18-24 MDM salvos don't convince whoever to die to move off - the CLAC better plan on moving before entering single drive missile range.

Possibly, but I was thinking most CLAC skippers operating independently would be keeping "if the enemy is in range, so are you" in mind. If they're operating on a divisional level, so there's 2 or 3 CLAC's, they could afford a little risk and firing MDM's. But if it's a singleton, and it gets blown up, they also lose 100% of the LAC's.