Manticore lifestyle

Theemile wrote:a 5% flat tax would take $500 from somebody making $10,000 and $50,000 from someone making $1 million. How would that be burdensome?

If the average wage earner made ~$100,000, and there were ~1 billion wage earners, that's 5 trillion a year in taxes from that flat tax. - and that's not counting junction fees and corporate taxes.

It wouldn't be burdensome from the millionaire but it might be a problem for someone making $10k, depending on cost of living and such. $5 trillion sounds like a lot but how much money is required to provide services to that population? Not to mention pay for a suitable military and the other things a government needs to go about.

noblehunter wrote:It wouldn't be burdensome from the millionaire but it might be a problem for someone making $10k, depending on cost of living and such. $5 trillion sounds like a lot but how much money is required to provide services to that population? Not to mention pay for a suitable military and the other things a government needs to go about.

The US Government was run on import duties and similar for the first 120 or so years.

noblehunter wrote:

Theemile wrote:a 5% flat tax would take $500 from somebody making $10,000 and $50,000 from someone making $1 million. How would that be burdensome?

If the average wage earner made ~$100,000, and there were ~1 billion wage earners, that's 5 trillion a year in taxes from that flat tax. - and that's not counting junction fees and corporate taxes.

It wouldn't be burdensome from the millionaire but it might be a problem for someone making $10k, depending on cost of living and such. $5 trillion sounds like a lot but how much money is required to provide services to that population? Not to mention pay for a suitable military and the other things a government needs to go about.

The US's total take (including corporate taxes and tariffs) for the first 1/2 of 2014 was ~$1.32 Trillion, with an average wage of ~$44,000 and a tax rate of %25 for that wage, with a population 1/10th that of the Star Kingdom.

Assuming a similar Corporate tax structure to the US, making Manticore's personal flat tax of ~10% would produce the same per capita tax base as the US without the wormhole fees.

noblehunter wrote:If the rate was high enough to get serious revenue out of the rich, the poor would be destitute. Only a progressive tax that could tax the rich without burdening the poor intolerably.

What generally seems to happen with "progressive" income taxes is that whilst "the rich" seemingly have a higher rate to pay, they also have full access to the full set of tax loopholes and allowances to reduce that rate drastically. ("The poor" obviously also have access to those same loopholes and allowances, but generally lack the money to take advantage of them.)

e.g. The top rate of income tax is 45% in the UK if you're earning over £150k, and there's an extra 2% of National Insurance on top of that. However be a contractor whose own company provides your services to your employer, and you can pay yourself minimum wage and not pay more than 20%+12% on your income. Then pay the rest out as dividends and it'll be taxed at no more than 27.5%! So don't worry about that nice "progressive" income tax system and it's headline rate of 45+2% because you can easily avoid it! (Take your income, buy shares in listed companies within a ISA "tax wrapper" and the dividends those shares produce will be complete tax free!)

Simplify out as many of those loopholes and allowances as possible, and you can probably reduce the top rate of income tax down to the amount "the rich" where really paying anyway.

So then the question becomes what constitutes "serious revenue" and what constitutes "burdening the poor intolerably" because the answers seem to be, for the UK at least, that "the rich" are (despite what the income tax system says) probably paying about the same rate, if not lower in some cases, than "the poor"!

Theemile wrote:

noblehunter wrote:The impression I got of the Manticoran flat tax is that it was intended more to ensure citizens had an investment in the government than to actually provide revenue. The Junction would make any flat income-tax a mere footnote. If the rate was high enough to get serious revenue out of the rich, the poor would be destitute. Only a progressive tax that could tax the rich without burdening the poor intolerably.

a 5% flat tax would take $500 from somebody making $10,000 and $50,000 from someone making $1 million. How would that be burdensome?

If the average wage earner made ~$100,000, and there were ~1 billion wage earners, that's 5 trillion a year in taxes from that flat tax. - and that's not counting junction fees and corporate taxes.

If its just 5% then it's probably no too burdensome for either.
But one issue with a higher flat tax on income is that cost of living usually takes up a much larger percentage of a poor families income than a rich families.
Or to state another way a rich family has more discretionary income so the same tax percentage isn't so burdensome.

But again 5% is probably low enough not to be a major problem; but if everyone has to pay 20% that would be much more painful on the poor since they probably don't have 20% of their income that's not already allocated to basic food and shelter.


However IIRC it's only the income tax that Manticore's constitution requires to be a flat percentage. It's entirely possible that there are other taxes (property taxes for example) that could be charged at higher rates to the wealthy than the poor (or maybe not. I'm pretty sure RFC did not put the effort into modeling the government fiances that he did to the naval tactics and technology ).

Theemile wrote:
The US's total take (including corporate taxes and tariffs) for the first 1/2 of 2014 was ~$1.32 Trillion, with an average wage of ~$44,000 and a tax rate of %25 for that wage, with a population 1/10th that of the Star Kingdom.

Assuming a similar Corporate tax structure to the US, making Manticore's personal flat tax of ~10% would produce the same per capita tax base as the US without the wormhole fees.

I think 10% would be burdensome on the poor. Granted, we know there are benefit programs to alleviate that burden but it strikes me as inefficient to take with one hand and give with the other.

My original point was intended that since Manticore can use the Junction as primary source of revenue, the flat tax is more about making sure everyone has skin in the game (or the ability to get it) rather than a serious attempt to pay for the functions of government.

Side note: while the US is a somewhat decent example of a first-world taxpayer, it's not, on the federal-level, a good example of what it costs to fulfill the functions of government. The hodge-podge of compromise and compromised principles in state/federal relationship makes it too idiosyncratic.

noblehunter wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The US's total take (including corporate taxes and tariffs) for the first 1/2 of 2014 was ~$1.32 Trillion, with an average wage of ~$44,000 and a tax rate of %25 for that wage, with a population 1/10th that of the Star Kingdom.

Assuming a similar Corporate tax structure to the US, making Manticore's personal flat tax of ~10% would produce the same per capita tax base as the US without the wormhole fees.

I think 10% would be burdensome on the poor. Granted, we know there are benefit programs to alleviate that burden but it strikes me as inefficient to take with one hand and give with the other.

My original point was intended that since Manticore can use the Junction as primary source of revenue, the flat tax is more about making sure everyone has skin in the game (or the ability to get it) rather than a serious attempt to pay for the functions of government.

Side note: while the US is a somewhat decent example of a first-world taxpayer, it's not, on the federal-level, a good example of what it costs to fulfill the functions of government. The hodge-podge of compromise and compromised principles in state/federal relationship makes it too idiosyncratic.

To be fair - the US borrowed 432 billion in the same period - most of it to cover interest payments on the existing debt.

I've mentioned it before but a tax free threshold helps with the flat tax problem.



Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

noblehunter wrote:

Theemile wrote:
The US's total take (including corporate taxes and tariffs) for the first 1/2 of 2014 was ~$1.32 Trillion, with an average wage of ~$44,000 and a tax rate of %25 for that wage, with a population 1/10th that of the Star Kingdom.

Assuming a similar Corporate tax structure to the US, making Manticore's personal flat tax of ~10% would produce the same per capita tax base as the US without the wormhole fees.

I think 10% would be burdensome on the poor. Granted, we know there are benefit programs to alleviate that burden but it strikes me as inefficient to take with one hand and give with the other.

My original point was intended that since Manticore can use the Junction as primary source of revenue, the flat tax is more about making sure everyone has skin in the game (or the ability to get it) rather than a serious attempt to pay for the functions of government.

Side note: while the US is a somewhat decent example of a first-world taxpayer, it's not, on the federal-level, a good example of what it costs to fulfill the functions of government. The hodge-podge of compromise and compromised principles in state/federal relationship makes it too idiosyncratic.

Also, don't forget that there are assistance programs for the poor - what they are, we don't know, but the required tax (since it would be obviously known) would probably be figured into any assistance program, offsetting or replacing the value of the money paid in taxes with assistance. Be this food/food stamps, low cost housing, medical assistance programs, or something else, we don't know, but we know they exist or else the statement about $1 more in paid in taxes than handouts received in order to vote would not exist.

Theemile wrote:
Also, don't forget that there are assistance programs for the poor - what they are, we don't know, but the required tax (since it would be obviously known) would probably be figured into any assistance program, offsetting or replacing the value of the money paid in taxes with assistance. Be this food/food stamps, low cost housing, medical assistance programs, or something else, we don't know, but we know they exist or else the statement about $1 more in paid in taxes than handouts received in order to vote would not exist.

True. Also that reminds me. I believe RFC also said at a con panel that the "handouts received" to be compared to taxes paid applies only to direct government transfer payments. There are other programs that might assist low income families 'in kind' that do not count towards this; I can't remember if he gave specific examples but I think that might cover things like state run daycare, or job training/placement assistance, etc.

There must be something the government can do to assist people (or "buy" votes; depending on your perspective) without disqualifying voters. Because we know that, during the ceasefire, the High Ridge government worked hard to keep the extra tax revenue and divert it from the military to domestic programs. Even he wouldn't be dumb enough to "buy" votes in such a way that eliminates the vote he's trying to "buy"