Symmyns' 30,000

wkernochan wrote:This brings up something I have always wondered about. Remember when the leader of the Reform movement (my memory fails me badly here) is killed? It's in a duel with a Temple Guard whom he has, I believe, trained. That Temple Guard kills him rather than wounding him and leaving him available for torture, and it is surprising that the Guard is a better swordsman. It sounds more like the Temple Guardsman is actually doing the leader a favor. He is then made the head of the Temple Guards.

Is it possible that the head of the Temple Guards is a sleeper agent for the Reform movement? Is it possible that he will back Duchairn at the critical moment, given that the leader challenged Duchairn to become a Reformer just before the leader died?

Loren Pechtel wrote:

NHBL wrote:How far away could a crack shot, with the best gun and scope that is Safehold made (or made by Merlin in such a way that it can't be proven by the church to be other than locally built, anyway) reliably kill a selected target? (Not a PICA, just a really, really good sniper)

Long range assination may become important. Of course, the church knows that people can be shot from rediculous ranges now, anyway,

I think it's going to come down to the powder rather than the gun. Super long range sniping needs very reliable propellant.

Also, the bigger the bullet and the more powder the longer range you can shoot--ordinary sniper rifles are limited in this regard by recoil. Put too much oomph into the bullet and you break the shooter's shoulder.

snip

wkernochan wrote:This brings up something I have always wondered about. Remember when the leader of the Reform movement (my memory fails me badly here) is killed? It's in a duel with a Temple Guard whom he has, I believe, trained. That Temple Guard kills him rather than wounding him and leaving him available for torture, and it is surprising that the Guard is a better swordsman. It sounds more like the Temple Guardsman is actually doing the leader a favor. He is then made the head of the Temple Guards.

Is it possible that the head of the Temple Guards is a sleeper agent for the Reform movement? Is it possible that he will back Duchairn at the critical moment, given that the leader challenged Duchairn to become a Reformer just before the leader died?

DDHvi wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:*quote="NHBL"*How far away could a crack shot, with the best gun and scope that is Safehold made (or made by Merlin in such a way that it can't be proven by the church to be other than locally built, anyway) reliably kill a selected target? (Not a PICA, just a really, really good sniper)

Long range assination may become important. Of course, the church knows that people can be shot from rediculous ranges now, anyway,*quote]*

I think it's going to come down to the powder rather than the gun. Super long range sniping needs very reliable propellant.

Also, the bigger the bullet and the more powder the longer range you can shoot--ordinary sniper rifles are limited in this regard by recoil. Put too much oomph into the bullet and you break the shooter's shoulder.

snip

I once read that in the US civil war, a sniper with a heavy rifle (I think a Sharps), extra powder, and much preparation managed to kill a general at close to two miles range. In something like this, there is always an element of chance: he fired when the tent door was opened - by an aide - but the general was right behind the aide.

Keith_w wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

The ice-boats are part of the courier chain, not the logistics one. The books specifically state that once winter sets in, Zion is cut off from outside supply. I doubt that there are sufficient iceboats to transport 3000 troops, never mind 30000. In addition to which at the very least the captains are members of the temple guard.

n7axw wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

The St Kylman breach loader is a modified late 18th century iron design, and while open hearth steel plants have been built, keeping in mind that all those built in South Harchong ~1/3-<1/2, are now not available to the Go4 [so I wonder where their production will wind up ] we have yet to see steel versions being made or used yet, though that may change by spring.

A long range non-PICA sniper technique is too complicated without involving Merlin especially when simpler IED's have been demonstrated to be so effective in Zion itself.

Indeed, we should have heard some mention of the "Fist of God" using more rifles, pistols, and Kai-yungs, or stepping up their use to engage at longer and safer ranges for them.

Decapitation of the inquisition commanders of the Zion city Temple Guard ought to be part of Duchairn's plans [along with those Temple Guard leaders known to suborned by them], which Nynian will heartily support.

On the primary topic of this thread, the army in question is too far away this winter [south of Lake Pei], NTM I will be surprised if this army isn't or hasn't been neutralized by Clyntahn and Rayno long before they become a factor in Zion.

If Rhobair doesn't act this winter, the army might not be allowed north until BGV or DE lands at Port Home in early summer, when it'll be too late except to police the city after the surrender.

Clyntahn's paranoia was the primary reason for mentioning this force, long before Second Pasquale's blew up and Magwair began to to see Clyntahn's moves against him.

We've seen no sign yet he's ever considered any of the things Clyntahn thinks he might, which seems more an indication of how far gone Zhaspahr was then and of course he's getting worse.

Dohlar dropping out will drive him even further, as will loss of quick communication with Howard when Dairnyth falls to EHM.

Given his continuing failure with the 'Fist of God', I wouldn't be surprised if the guards outside Clyntahn's apartment have been very carefully chosen by Rayno in case of a 'personal' emergency.

The jury is still out on whether Rhobair's coup will work or even if he'll survive, though I suspect he will, to lead the post war CoGA, though probably not for long before the very many arch conservatives attack him for his heresy for even meeting with the heretics etc.

Interesting times indeed.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

Your analysis is interesting.

But what was stimulating my interest at the moment was the range of sniper rifes. I think those muzzle loaders spoecially designed for snipers in Corisande were about a thousand yards or so... I wonder what your impression of a M96 would be... Getting apples to apples here, think of an M96 specially designed as a sniper rife...

Don

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JeffEngel wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

The possibilities aren't exhausted by the fully prepared, carefully planned attempt with every chance of success and the half-hearted, half-baked attempt. A prominent third possibility may be something in between: a hurried implementation of a careful plan in progress that needed more time for completion; a job that's as careful as possible in the context of not having a generous amount of time to put it together; or having to make a plan that's been substantially but not completely disrupted by circumstances (e.g., a key unit transferred out of area without the plan being known or clearly suspected) work sooner than it would have taken to put it back together completely.

These aren't conspirators with the luxury of perfecting plans so much that they're near certain to succeed or not worth the bother to try. At a time they cannot do too much to put off or even predict, they may be arrested, tortured, and killed, and any number of loyal personnel and innocent bystanders killed too. So setting it off under less than ideal circumstances (in any number of ways) is almost inevitable.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I expect the Scout-Snipers to have first call on the smokeless powder for the two obvious reasons of the near 50% increase in power and velocity cited in LaMA and the reduced gun smoke giving away their positions.

How soon we'll see this in textev is another question.

The sniper rifles of the Corisande campaign were good for ~600+ yards, and the Mahndrayn improved on that, while the M96 with the black powder round Howsmyn held in his hand in LaMA was accurate out to 900 yards apparently, though I'd expect sniper scopes to be required at that range, which ought to be quite possible for Charis.

If the M96 is of near Mauser/Enfield/Springfield quality as its description implies, then further extended sniper ranges with smokeless powder are quite possible.

Knowing RFC's preference for pungent puns and historic references, I expect we'll soon see a Safehold version of Sedgwick's famous non-last words.

The temple boys reaction to this, especially their officers ought to be delicious.