The 1000 year visit

DDHvi wrote:BTW, I've seen mention of something that would allow a personal signature in this blog, but haven't yet found how to reach it. Anyone feeling helpful?

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n7axw wrote:

Louis R wrote:I agree that the Brethren accomplished a great deal with what they had - in fact, the signs are that they had gone just about as far as they could without straying into the open whether they intended to or not. They ran out of time when they did because the Grand Inquisitor happened to be a paranoid manipulative bastard, but in another generation or two even a Samyl Wylsynn would have been starting to feel some twinges of concern over the Out Islands' orthodoxy.

And that leads me to another can that hasn't been kicked around much lately: It's rather unlikely that _every_ fully-paid-up member of the inner Brethren has remained on Charis - but none have been mentioned turning up elsewhere in the Empire, and I'm very, very sure that Maikel would have called them in when he was on their respective islands and given them an update and the appropriate tech kit. They would have simply been too useful to waste - still would be, for that matter. I don't find that especially surprising, to be honest, since while I would expect some full members to be off Charis, I wouldn't expect it to be very many - easily as few as one or two, given that there don't seem to have been more than a couple of dozen to begin with.

There is no textev that any of the inner circle amongst the Brethren of St Zherneau worked anyplace but Charis. Their role was to preserve the secret and work to spread St Zherneau's public teachings, particularly on tolerance as widely as possible, which in practicality worked out to influencing the priesthood within Charis to such a degree that the Charisian church was standing out enough to attract attention in Zion.

I agree that eventually Zion would have reacted even without Clyntahn. But Clyntahn hastened the reaction.

Don

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Whether or not the BOSZ's inner circle ever had members off of Charis may be less important than what the outer circle(s) may have accomplished and where. Sheer distance from Zion and keeping their own people for their own priesthoods would make for indifferent orthodoxy through the Out Islands, but the Brotherhood's influence has been at work for the same result in Charis at least.

That part doesn't require knowledge of the Knowles journal - that is, membership in that original inner circle - and may well have diffused at least to Emerald and maybe Tarot. Emerald at least has been about as much in Charis' cultural and economic sphere of influence for a long time - it's why Nahrmahn felt he had to maneuver against Charis simply to retain Emerald's effective independence - and Tarot was also subject to asymmetric Charisian influence. Some of that may plausibly have been ideas about the Church/individual relationship that may plausibly have gone back to the Brotherhood, though that is of course plenty speculative.

It'd be a lot more tenuous to try to read any of that into Corisande, Zebediah, or Chisholm, or even more Fallos, Trellheim, or Hammer Island. (Heck - the influence on Hammer Island may amount to the village priest having an afternoon thinking about a quip made after a sermon by one Charisian sailor, and not even RFC's books are long enough to get THAT detailed!) Again, sheer distance from Zion and retention of local priests is doing much the same thing out there anyway.

For that matter, the mainland priests who got "exiled" to the Out Islands would have been those who did not care to and/or did not have the connections to play for the most prestigious mainland positions - men like Erayk Dynnys, Klairmant Gairlyng, Paityr Wylsynn, Zherald Ahdymsyn - and that's going to go along with, often enough, reduced attachment to the way things are in Zion. Driven to the right circumstances, Dynnys and Ahdymsyn could be as settled and happy in themselves with rejecting Zion and orthodoxy as a native Out Islander, and Gairlyng and Wylsynn had a streak of rebellion cooking away in their hearts just waiting for a safe outlet that they found out there. So you get a third distinct influence toward Out Island heterodoxy that way. There's no reason to suppose that that only operated in this last generation, so we get a fuzzier account of the origins and development of Out Island theological restiveness.

Indeed not - but, as is oft quoted around here, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

According to Staynair, most members of the Brethren also end up as members of one of the major orders. You are, in effect, positing that no one was ever admitted to the inner Brethren until it was certain that he'd never be transferred off Charis. I would contend that that, in the case of Maikel Staynair himself, only _became_ certain within the last 5 years. Long after, IOW, he was promoted. [In fact, if I'd been Erayk Dynnys, I'd have been trying to trade him to Zhaysyn Cahnnyr for the last decade, at least. ] The odds are that that _has_ happened with other young members of the inner circle over the years, and the Brethren may not even go out of their way to avoid it.

Note that I'm not suggesting that there must be dozens of them out there. It would surprise me far more to learn that there are more than one or two than to hear that there aren't any at all.

n7axw wrote:
There is no textev that any of the inner circle amongst the Brethren of St Zherneau worked anyplace but Charis. Their role was to preserve the secret and work to spread St Zherneau's public teachings, particularly on tolerance as widely as possible, which in practicality worked out to influencing the priesthood within Charis to such a degree that the Charisian church was standing out enough to attract attention in Zion.

I agree that eventually Zion would have reacted even without Clyntahn. But Clyntahn hastened the reaction.

Don

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JeffEngel wrote:Whether or not the BOSZ's inner circle ever had members off of Charis may be less important than what the outer circle(s) may have accomplished and where. Sheer distance from Zion and keeping their own people for their own priesthoods would make for indifferent orthodoxy through the Out Islands, but the Brotherhood's influence has been at work for the same result in Charis at least.

Not seen any TextEv for this, but it's possible that whilst Zion was keen to keep the "out islanders" away from the mainland (and the mainlanders with connections where keen on not getting "exiled") they might not have been so bothered about priests transferring between the "out islands"?

The centre of reform (or heresy, depending on your POV) would still be Charis but it could be another factor dragging the other islands along?

PalmerSperry wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Whether or not the BOSZ's inner circle ever had members off of Charis may be less important than what the outer circle(s) may have accomplished and where. Sheer distance from Zion and keeping their own people for their own priesthoods would make for indifferent orthodoxy through the Out Islands, but the Brotherhood's influence has been at work for the same result in Charis at least.

Not seen any TextEv for this, but it's possible that whilst Zion was keen to keep the "out islanders" away from the mainland (and the mainlanders with connections where keen on not getting "exiled") they might not have been so bothered about priests transferring between the "out islands"?

The centre of reform (or heresy, depending on your POV) would still be Charis but it could be another factor dragging the other islands along?

There may be some weak reason to think that Zion didn't shuffle Out Islander priests much around the Out Islands just for not caring enough to: they are few, they are distant, and they may as well be interchangeable for all Zion cared until recently. On the other hand, shuffling is standard over the lowest ranks of the priesthood, and even if they were practicing policies that had the effect of isolating Out Islanders from mainlanders, they could still shuffle the Out Islanders among the islands. We've not textev either way and speculation in either direction is way out on a thin limb.

Certainly if Charisian priests exposed to Charisian theology under the influence of the Brotherhood were shuffled to other Out Islands, it'd affect the religious climate on those other islands more than if the Charisian priests all stayed at home and the channels of influence were all less direct (parishioners, printed sermons, etc.).

I imagine Zion - even bishops executors on the Out Islands - may have been a bit suspicious about Out Islander priests volunteering themselves for transfer among the Out Islands. On the other hand, those bishops executor may have been the people doing Zion's work shuffling the priests among the Islands themselves: even if Zion cannot be brought around to caring enough, a diligent BE could hope to win some points by assiduously following policy that way on his own, in concert with his counterpart on the next (remote, borderline-heretical, Langhorne-forsaken, but pleasantly wealthy) Out Island.

Louis R wrote:Indeed not - but, as is oft quoted around here, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

According to Staynair, most members of the Brethren also end up as members of one of the major orders. You are, in effect, positing that no one was ever admitted to the inner Brethren until it was certain that he'd never be transferred off Charis. I would contend that that, in the case of Maikel Staynair himself, only _became_ certain within the last 5 years. Long after, IOW, he was promoted. [In fact, if I'd been Erayk Dynnys, I'd have been trying to trade him to Zhaysyn Cahnnyr for the last decade, at least. ] The odds are that that _has_ happened with other young members of the inner circle over the years, and the Brethren may not even go out of their way to avoid it.

Note that I'm not suggesting that there must be dozens of them out there. It would surprise me far more to learn that there are more than one or two than to hear that there aren't any at all.

It is true as you say that one cannot say that there have been no parish priests from Charis who have been cross posted. What we do have textev for is that Zion's suspicion of Charisian orthodoxy discourages the practice.

Also, I have the impression that the inner circle consists mainly of brethren who are residents at the monastary. That should not be construed to mean that this is the case exclusively. But if true in the main, it would cut down on the chances of a inner circle member being cross posted to the mainland.

Don

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Joat42 wrote:

DDHvi wrote:BTW, I've seen mention of something that would allow a personal signature in this blog, but haven't yet found how to reach it. Anyone feeling helpful?

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Thanks. I didn't see the right sidebar item. I see it worked

n7axw wrote:
Also, I have the impression that the inner circle consists mainly of brethren who are residents at the monastary. That should not be construed to mean that this is the case exclusively. But if true in the main, it would cut down on the chances of a inner circle member being cross posted to the mainland.

Don

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I got that impression myself that the brotherhood consists largely of monks and there's been no indication, that I can remember at least, that monks get shifted around like priests.

n7axw wrote:

Louis R wrote:Indeed not - but, as is oft quoted around here, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

According to Staynair, most members of the Brethren also end up as members of one of the major orders. You are, in effect, positing that no one was ever admitted to the inner Brethren until it was certain that he'd never be transferred off Charis. I would contend that that, in the case of Maikel Staynair himself, only _became_ certain within the last 5 years. Long after, IOW, he was promoted. [In fact, if I'd been Erayk Dynnys, I'd have been trying to trade him to Zhaysyn Cahnnyr for the last decade, at least. ] The odds are that that _has_ happened with other young members of the inner circle over the years, and the Brethren may not even go out of their way to avoid it.

Note that I'm not suggesting that there must be dozens of them out there. It would surprise me far more to learn that there are more than one or two than to hear that there aren't any at all.

It is true as you say that one cannot say that there have been no parish priests from Charis who have been cross posted. What we do have textev for is that Zion's suspicion of Charisian orthodoxy discourages the practice.

Also, I have the impression that the inner circle consists mainly of brethren who are residents at the monastary. That should not be construed to mean that this is the case exclusively. But if true in the main, it would cut down on the chances of a inner circle member being cross posted to the mainland.

Don

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Absolutely there are priests not resident in the monastery that are part of the brethren circle - Michael Stayner is one example. It is simply that the people who get mentioned the most are those in the monastery since they are the ones most easy to consult and probably the leadership of the decision making group.

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:Also, I have the impression that the inner circle consists mainly of brethren who are residents at the monastary. That should not be construed to mean that this is the case exclusively. But if true in the main, it would cut down on the chances of a inner circle member being cross posted to the mainland.

Don

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Absolutely there are priests not resident in the monastery that are part of the brethren circle - Michael Stayner is one example. It is simply that the people who get mentioned the most are those in the monastery since they are the ones most easy to consult and probably the leadership of the decision making group.

I imagine it is a whole lot easier to decide to induct someone into the inner circle when you know they will be right there anyway in the normal course of things, when no one will miss them if they have to vanish or be kept under watch for a long time, and when you can have a long and intensive time to get to know them before deciding in the first place. So the threshold for entry is practically much easier to meet for permanent residents of the monastery (or nunnery).

There wouldn't have to be any policy in place or desired to restrict inner circle membership to the monks and nuns in that case, but you'd get a strong bias toward them anyway - which is about what we observe.