The 1000 year visit

Just to throw a snake in the crowd.
Suppose during the last years of the war of the fallen, one of the last command level 'demons’ tells a group of rebels that the war is lost , for now. But, he will return in the Year 1000 to resume the war. He then retreats to a hidden cryo unit to wait until then.
The rebels are defeated and the Inquisition learns of the ‘prophecy’. The Inquisition ensures that the ‘prophecy’ is lost to the regular population by killing everyone who knows, outside of the Church. The Church wants to remember to watch for this return, but not reveal, even by accident, this last Heretical ‘prophecy’ so it is never written down.
Fast forward several hundreds of years.
The Church has so garbled the meaning of the ‘prophecy’ that they now believe it to be the return of an arch-angel to help them.
Imagine the chaos when the ‘demon’ shows up with full knowledge of the Temple systems and the
orbital bombardment system.
I wouldn’t put it past MWW to pull a rabbit of this sort from the hat.

Nimue's thoughts about the return indicates that using cryo for 1000 years is incredibly risky, bordering on suicide. That's why she discounted it in favor of a recorded personality or PICA.

Xsquid wrote:Just to throw a snake in the crowd.
Suppose during the last years of the war of the fallen, one of the last command level 'demons’ tells a group of rebels that the war is lost , for now. But, he will return in the Year 1000 to resume the war. He then retreats to a hidden cryo unit to wait until then.
The rebels are defeated and the Inquisition learns of the ‘prophecy’. The Inquisition ensures that the ‘prophecy’ is lost to the regular population by killing everyone who knows, outside of the Church. The Church wants to remember to watch for this return, but not reveal, even by accident, this last Heretical ‘prophecy’ so it is never written down.
Fast forward several hundreds of years.
The Church has so garbled the meaning of the ‘prophecy’ that they now believe it to be the return of an arch-angel to help them.
Imagine the chaos when the ‘demon’ shows up with full knowledge of the Temple systems and the
orbital bombardment system.
I wouldn’t put it past MWW to pull a rabbit of this sort from the hat.

Given what we now know from Cody Cortazar's journal, and what's been ascertained since by Merlin's contemplation and Paityr's revelation, it's almost clear that the command crew could not have gone into cryo after the War Against the Fallen had ended. It's equally clear however, that they needed some sort of contingency plan in the event some other rebel survived the war along with some hidden technology. And we know that the "demons" of the Writ were those soldiers fighting on the losing side of the war and probably any of the select seijin who like Cody started to question who they were fighting for yet weren't at the forefront of the fight (and could therefore be condemned and eliminated more publicly). It would also seem that for some reason, Chihiro and Schueler needed that "mortal interface" between them and the general population. And we know from RFC's comments that originally Bedard and Langhorne intended to be more "hand off" with the church, preferring to make minor changes when necessary in order to allow the psychological profile they sought to formulate and that Chihiro and Schueler were not trained psychologists but who were aware the Church could become corrupted (as they created a much more "top heavy" arrangement).

Given all this, Chihiro and Schueler needed to address three possible problems that would likely arise after their deaths:
1) The Stone and the Key of Schueler gave Schueler's descendants the mission to combat Church corruption and the tools to do it. In theory at least, vetting all Vicars and Archbishops with the Verifier would at least force everyone to be truthful in the open.
2) The Key within the Key would deal with any leftover "demons" by awakening "God's power" beneath the Temple.
3) The periodic return of the "archangels" would allow then to correct any deviations from the path laid out by Langhorne and Bedard.

But I am still convinced that they could not conceive of a situation whereby the opposition would awaken 900 local years later and start a carefully executed campaign to undermine the Church's authority (and the Proscriptions). Nor do I think they could have guessed that Cody's adherents would have survived the way they did nor that Shan-wei had created sleeper agents that would "act on faith" the way Saint Zherneau's followers did. After all, it takes quite a lot of faith to believe the writings of a long-dead person who clearly contradicted his previous statements in the Testimonies.

thanatos wrote:<snip>
But I am still convinced that they could not conceive of a situation whereby the opposition would awaken 900 local years later and start a carefully executed campaign to undermine the Church's authority (and the Proscriptions). Nor do I think they could have guessed that Cody's adherents would have survived the way they did nor that Shan-wei had created sleeper agents that would "act on faith" the way Saint Zherneau's followers did. After all, it takes quite a lot of faith to believe the writings of a long-dead person who clearly contradicted his previous statements in the Testimonies.

Even the Brethren of St. Zherneau required a "divine sign" to be forced into action - namely Nimue. Without Nimue's coming (prophesied or no) the Brethren would have stayed in the same state they had been for years - protecting the few truths they had and slowly vetting new members to their order. They had no power to transform mass numbers of hearts and minds and no special weapons to take a war to the doors of the church.

You know when Nimue's name was whispered, every heart in the room stopped, waiting for a reaction; every breath held, for in the dark recesses of their hearts, no one wanted to truly believe that all the details held in St. Zherneau's was true; and every eye was focused, because they didn't want to miss a sign that the day they awaited had come at last.

And without that name, nothing would have changed.

Theemile wrote:

thanatos wrote:<snip>
But I am still convinced that they could not conceive of a situation whereby the opposition would awaken 900 local years later and start a carefully executed campaign to undermine the Church's authority (and the Proscriptions). Nor do I think they could have guessed that Cody's adherents would have survived the way they did nor that Shan-wei had created sleeper agents that would "act on faith" the way Saint Zherneau's followers did. After all, it takes quite a lot of faith to believe the writings of a long-dead person who clearly contradicted his previous statements in the Testimonies.

Even the Brethren of St. Zherneau required a "divine sign" to be forced into action - namely Nimue. Without Nimue's coming (prophesied or no) the Brethren would have stayed in the same state they had been for years - protecting the few truths they had and slowly vetting new members to their order. They had no power to transform mass numbers of hearts and minds and no special weapons to take a war to the doors of the church.

You know when Nimue's name was whispered, every heart in the room stopped, waiting for a reaction; every breath held, for in the dark recesses of their hearts, no one wanted to truly believe that all the details held in St. Zherneau's was true; and every eye was focused, because they didn't want to miss a sign that the day they awaited had come at last.

And without that name, nothing would have changed.

I think that understates what else the Brotherhood did. It had two roles. One was indeed preserving the truth about Creation and the prior history of humanity from Jeremiah Knowles' journal. But the other was cultivating a different attitude toward religion and the Church on Safehold, very quietly, but with a ripple effect that extended well past the people privy to the secrets of the journal.

That work - essentially, making the career and thought of Maikel Staynair possible, providing an Out Island perspective on Church responsibility and the relationships appropriate among Church, God, and Safeholder - didn't quite require the degree of confirmation of the journal secrets that Nimue represented, and didn't require terribly dramatic conspiratorial actions. I do think that preparation of attitudes had a lot to do with the Charisian interest in and toleration of the Royal College and the wide support schism had after Armageddon Reef in Charis. (King Haarahld and other Ahrmahk monarchs did have going for them too, granted, being in on the journal secrets.)

That religious... wiggle room, call it - wouldn't help people deliberately and carefully undermine the Proscriptions. It wouldn't help invent gunpowder, either. But it would do a lot to pave the way for all of that, and to make Charis and neighbors indisposed to let the Inquisition have its way and follow every order out of Zion.

Generally I would agree with what you said except for this:

thanatos wrote:
3) The periodic return of the "archangels" would allow then to correct any deviations from the path laid out by Langhorne and Bedard.

The periodic return is to ensure that the church is following the path laid out by Chihiro and possibly Schuler.

JeffEngel wrote:I think that understates what else the Brotherhood did. It had two roles. One was indeed preserving the truth about Creation and the prior history of humanity from Jeremiah Knowles' journal. But the other was cultivating a different attitude toward religion and the Church on Safehold, very quietly, but with a ripple effect that extended well past the people privy to the secrets of the journal.

That work - essentially, making the career and thought of Maikel Staynair possible, providing an Out Island perspective on Church responsibility and the relationships appropriate among Church, God, and Safeholder - didn't quite require the degree of confirmation of the journal secrets that Nimue represented, and didn't require terribly dramatic conspiratorial actions. I do think that preparation of attitudes had a lot to do with the Charisian interest in and toleration of the Royal College and the wide support schism had after Armageddon Reef in Charis. (King Haarahld and other Ahrmahk monarchs did have going for them too, granted, being in on the journal secrets.)

That religious... wiggle room, call it - wouldn't help people deliberately and carefully undermine the Proscriptions. It wouldn't help invent gunpowder, either. But it would do a lot to pave the way for all of that, and to make Charis and neighbors indisposed to let the Inquisition have its way and follow every order out of Zion.

I suspect it also helped create what amounted to the best run nation on Safehold and the political/social environment that made Charis so attractive to Merlin in the first place. After all, with access to old Earth's history, Charisian rulers have a leg up over their peers in figuring out what policies are good for their nation and what weren't. Even if those histories weren't all that detailed, quite a bit (especially the pre-industrial parts) is going to be familiar enough to them that they can directly apply the lessons to their own reigns.

I agree that the Brethren accomplished a great deal with what they had - in fact, the signs are that they had gone just about as far as they could without straying into the open whether they intended to or not. They ran out of time when they did because the Grand Inquisitor happened to be a paranoid manipulative bastard, but in another generation or two even a Samyl Wylsynn would have been starting to feel some twinges of concern over the Out Islands' orthodoxy.

And that leads me to another can that hasn't been kicked around much lately: It's rather unlikely that _every_ fully-paid-up member of the inner Brethren has remained on Charis - but none have been mentioned turning up elsewhere in the Empire, and I'm very, very sure that Maikel would have called them in when he was on their respective islands and given them an update and the appropriate tech kit. They would have simply been too useful to waste - still would be, for that matter. I don't find that especially surprising, to be honest, since while I would expect some full members to be off Charis, I wouldn't expect it to be very many - easily as few as one or two, given that there don't seem to have been more than a couple of dozen to begin with. Still, that raises the interesting question of just where - and who - they are. Regretfully, I think we can exclude Stephan Maik. No Charisian would be trusted in his position, nor, I think, would anybody who had spent enough time in Charis to have linked up with the Brethren. [if nothing else, they'd have to be incredible actors to hide the attitude shift that entails - not even Maikel Staynair was that good]

thanatos wrote:<snip>
But I am still convinced that they could not conceive of a situation whereby the opposition would awaken 900 local years later and start a carefully executed campaign to undermine the Church's authority (and the Proscriptions). Nor do I think they could have guessed that Cody's adherents would have survived the way they did nor that Shan-wei had created sleeper agents that would "act on faith" the way Saint Zherneau's followers did. After all, it takes quite a lot of faith to believe the writings of a long-dead person who clearly contradicted his previous statements in the Testimonies.

JeffEngel wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Even the Brethren of St. Zherneau required a "divine sign" to be forced into action - namely Nimue. Without Nimue's coming (prophesied or no) the Brethren would have stayed in the same state they had been for years - protecting the few truths they had and slowly vetting new members to their order. They had no power to transform mass numbers of hearts and minds and no special weapons to take a war to the doors of the church.

You know when Nimue's name was whispered, every heart in the room stopped, waiting for a reaction; every breath held, for in the dark recesses of their hearts, no one wanted to truly believe that all the details held in St. Zherneau's was true; and every eye was focused, because they didn't want to miss a sign that the day they awaited had come at last.

And without that name, nothing would have changed.

I think that understates what else the Brotherhood did. It had two roles. One was indeed preserving the truth about Creation and the prior history of humanity from Jeremiah Knowles' journal. But the other was cultivating a different attitude toward religion and the Church on Safehold, very quietly, but with a ripple effect that extended well past the people privy to the secrets of the journal.

That work - essentially, making the career and thought of Maikel Staynair possible, providing an Out Island perspective on Church responsibility and the relationships appropriate among Church, God, and Safeholder - didn't quite require the degree of confirmation of the journal secrets that Nimue represented, and didn't require terribly dramatic conspiratorial actions. I do think that preparation of attitudes had a lot to do with the Charisian interest in and toleration of the Royal College and the wide support schism had after Armageddon Reef in Charis. (King Haarahld and other Ahrmahk monarchs did have going for them too, granted, being in on the journal secrets.)

That religious... wiggle room, call it - wouldn't help people deliberately and carefully undermine the Proscriptions. It wouldn't help invent gunpowder, either. But it would do a lot to pave the way for all of that, and to make Charis and neighbors indisposed to let the Inquisition have its way and follow every order out of Zion.

evilauthor wrote:
I suspect it also helped create what amounted to the best run nation on Safehold and the political/social environment that made Charis so attractive to Merlin in the first place. After all, with access to old Earth's history, Charisian rulers have a leg up over their peers in figuring out what policies are good for their nation and what weren't. Even if those histories weren't all that detailed, quite a bit (especially the pre-industrial parts) is going to be familiar enough to them that they can directly apply the lessons to their own reigns.

This could only work if they paid attention: how many of our politicians can you think of offhand that are promoting policies which have historically failed - many times. Even policies that are failing now

Of course, RFC is writing fiction, and can assume whatever he wants. There have been statesmen in the past, even some generations of them in a given country. There were never enough of them for long enough, though.

In deciding which Charis rulers to let into the inner circle, the BOSZ might have included the question of whether they thought said ruler could actually learn from history.

BTW, I've seen mention of something that would allow a personal signature in this blog, but haven't yet found how to reach it. Anyone feeling helpful?


Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd
ddhviste@drtel.net

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!


This is attempted Bayesian thinking. I wonder if Van Vogt's Null-A stories were based on this?

Louis R wrote:I agree that the Brethren accomplished a great deal with what they had - in fact, the signs are that they had gone just about as far as they could without straying into the open whether they intended to or not. They ran out of time when they did because the Grand Inquisitor happened to be a paranoid manipulative bastard, but in another generation or two even a Samyl Wylsynn would have been starting to feel some twinges of concern over the Out Islands' orthodoxy.

And that leads me to another can that hasn't been kicked around much lately: It's rather unlikely that _every_ fully-paid-up member of the inner Brethren has remained on Charis - but none have been mentioned turning up elsewhere in the Empire, and I'm very, very sure that Maikel would have called them in when he was on their respective islands and given them an update and the appropriate tech kit. They would have simply been too useful to waste - still would be, for that matter. I don't find that especially surprising, to be honest, since while I would expect some full members to be off Charis, I wouldn't expect it to be very many - easily as few as one or two, given that there don't seem to have been more than a couple of dozen to begin with. Still, that raises the interesting question of just where - and who - they are. Regretfully, I think we can exclude Stephan Maik. No Charisian would be trusted in his position, nor, I think, would anybody who had spent enough time in Charis to have linked up with the Brethren. [if nothing else, they'd have to be incredible actors to hide the attitude shift that entails - not even Maikel Staynair was that good]

There is no textev that any of the inner circle amongst the Brethren of St Zherneau worked anyplace but Charis. Their role was to preserve the secret and work to spread St Zherneau's public teachings, particularly on tolerance as widely as possible, which in practicality worked out to influencing the priesthood within Charis to such a degree that the Charisian church was standing out enough to attract attention in Zion.

I agree that eventually Zion would have reacted even without Clyntahn. But Clyntahn hastened the reaction.

Don

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