Symmyns' 30,000

NHBL wrote:How far away could a crack shot, with the best gun and scope that is Safehold made (or made by Merlin in such a way that it can't be proven by the church to be other than locally built, anyway) reliably kill a selected target? (Not a PICA, just a really, really good sniper)

Long range assination may become important. Of course, the church knows that people can be shot from rediculous ranges now, anyway,

I think it's going to come down to the powder rather than the gun. Super long range sniping needs very reliable propellant.

Also, the bigger the bullet and the more powder the longer range you can shoot--ordinary sniper rifles are limited in this regard by recoil. Put too much oomph into the bullet and you break the shooter's shoulder. Modern rifles are accurate enough that the shooter becomes the limiting factor, there's no need to get fancier with the gun.

However, this suggests another approach that might be useful in the Safehold world. Lets cross a gun with a bazooka.

Big bullet, big powder. That means a flat trajectory and thus more accuracy (Safehold doesn't have good rangefinders) and less sensitivity to the powder quality. It also means less chance of a miss due to the target moving.

The recoil of such a weapon is completely unacceptable in a rifle--so we build this like a bazooka. There are two separate parts of the weapon--the grips and sighting system and the actual barrel & firing system. The actual firing system is allowed to recoil like with artillery.

If the recoil is small enough you absorb this with a spring that has a damper on it's return speed so the innards don't slam back into position. If even that isn't enough you have the inner part actually eject--you have it tethered to something so you can retrieve it. Alternately, you put a small cannon on the back of your gun that is set off by the recoil from the useful part of the gun--it's very short-barreled and loaded with a packet of sand.

If we want to go even farther we can make a crew served weapon. It sits on a base rather than being held by the operator at all. It's aimed by turning wheels that have gearing to provide even finer control. (Yes, they can't make anything like perfect gears. There will be a lot of slop in the system but since we are aiming by eyeball through optics rather than by a servo this doesn't matter.) It will have to very quickly come apart into pieces one person can carry, though, so they can quickly get away once they have revealed themselves by firing. Targeting for such a weapon would clearly only be on those who are stationary.

"Made on Safehold" could mean hand-made by a master gunsmith equipped with calipers and other tools from Nimue's Cave. If it were captured, there'd be nothing to prove that TF technology had touched it, it would just look like superb workmanship.

Current rifles on Safehold are probably on a par with early 20th century. Machine tolerances are still improving. Howsmyn is sensitive to the issue and working on it.

A thousand plus yards is probably the current limit for the moment. It gets to a point going much beyond that where even with a scope the shooter, not the rifle becomes the limitation.

Bazookas are cool, but they are not the thing for snipers.

Don

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Hi Don,

The St Kylman breach loader is a modified late 18th century iron design, and while open hearth steel plants have been built, keeping in mind that all those built in South Harchong ~1/3-<1/2, are now not available to the Go4 [so I wonder where their production will wind up ] we have yet to see steel versions being made or used yet, though that may change by spring.

A long range non-PICA sniper technique is too complicated without involving Merlin especially when simpler IED's have been demonstrated to be so effective in Zion itself.

Indeed, we should have heard some mention of the "Fist of God" using more rifles, pistols, and Kai-yungs, or stepping up their use to engage at longer and safer ranges for them.

Decapitation of the inquisition commanders of the Zion city Temple Guard ought to be part of Duchairn's plans [along with those Temple Guard leaders known to suborned by them], which Nynian will heartily support.

On the primary topic of this thread, the army in question is too far away this winter [south of Lake Pei], NTM I will be surprised if this army isn't or hasn't been neutralized by Clyntahn and Rayno long before they become a factor in Zion.

If Rhobair doesn't act this winter, the army might not be allowed north until BGV or DE lands at Port Home in early summer, when it'll be too late except to police the city after the surrender.

Clyntahn's paranoia was the primary reason for mentioning this force, long before Second Pasquale's blew up and Magwair began to to see Clyntahn's moves against him.

We've seen no sign yet he's ever considered any of the things Clyntahn thinks he might, which seems more an indication of how far gone Zhaspahr was then and of course he's getting worse.

Dohlar dropping out will drive him even further, as will loss of quick communication with Howard when Dairnyth falls to EHM.

Given his continuing failure with the 'Fist of God', I wouldn't be surprised if the guards outside Clyntahn's apartment have been very carefully chosen by Rayno in case of a 'personal' emergency.

The jury is still out on whether Rhobair's coup will work or even if he'll survive, though I suspect he will, to lead the post war CoGA, though probably not for long before the very many arch conservatives attack him for his heresy for even meeting with the heretics etc.

Interesting times indeed.

L

n7axw wrote:Current rifles on Safehold are probably on a par with early 20th century. Machine tolerances are still improving. Howsmyn is sensitive to the issue and working on it.

A thousand plus yards is probably the current limit for the moment. It gets to a point going much beyond that where even with a scope the shooter, not the rifle becomes the limitation.

Bazookas are cool, but they are not the thing for snipers.

Don

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lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

The St Kylman breach loader is a modified late 18th century iron design, and while open hearth steel plants have been built, keeping in mind that all those built in South Harchong ~1/3-<1/2, are now not available to the Go4 [so I wonder where their production will wind up ] we have yet to see steel versions being made or used yet, though that may change by spring.

A long range non-PICA sniper technique is too complicated without involving Merlin especially when simpler IED's have been demonstrated to be so effective in Zion itself.

Indeed, we should have heard some mention of the "Fist of God" using more rifles, pistols, and Kai-yungs, or stepping up their use to engage at longer and safer ranges for them.

Decapitation of the inquisition commanders of the Zion city Temple Guard ought to be part of Duchairn's plans [along with those Temple Guard leaders known to suborned by them], which Nynian will heartily support.

On the primary topic of this thread, the army in question is too far away this winter [south of Lake Pei], NTM I will be surprised if this army isn't or hasn't been neutralized by Clyntahn and Rayno long before they become a factor in Zion.

If Rhobair doesn't act this winter, the army might not be allowed north until BGV or DE lands at Port Home in early summer, when it'll be too late except to police the city after the surrender.

Clyntahn's paranoia was the primary reason for mentioning this force, long before Second Pasquale's blew up and Magwair began to to see Clyntahn's moves against him.

We've seen no sign yet he's ever considered any of the things Clyntahn thinks he might, which seems more an indication of how far gone Zhaspahr was then and of course he's getting worse.

Dohlar dropping out will drive him even further, as will loss of quick communication with Howard when Dairnyth falls to EHM.

Given his continuing failure with the 'Fist of God', I wouldn't be surprised if the guards outside Clyntahn's apartment have been very carefully chosen by Rayno in case of a 'personal' emergency.

The jury is still out on whether Rhobair's coup will work or even if he'll survive, though I suspect he will, to lead the post war CoGA, though probably not for long before the very many arch conservatives attack him for his heresy for even meeting with the heretics etc.

Interesting times indeed.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

Your analysis is interesting.

But what was stimulating my interest at the moment was the range of sniper rifes. I think those muzzle loaders spoecially designed for snipers in Corisande were about a thousand yards or so... I wonder what your impression of a M96 would be... Getting apples to apples here, think of an M96 specially designed as a sniper rife...

Don

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Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

I can imagine Merlin giving Magwair the gift of removing Clyntahn's creatures from the army at a critical moment. However carefully planned the internal coup is, there's nothing wrong with offering it strokes of good luck.

For example, a SNARC could intercept the order to relieve Symmyns, and Merlin could take all the risk out of it for Magwair.

If Magwair doesn't have plans, it might encourage him to develop them if Symmyns suffered a tragic accident during a tense period. "Sorry, Clyntahn, we had only one qualified replacement available. We're stretched kind of thin, you know."

Randomiser wrote:Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

The possibilities aren't exhausted by the fully prepared, carefully planned attempt with every chance of success and the half-hearted, half-baked attempt. A prominent third possibility may be something in between: a hurried implementation of a careful plan in progress that needed more time for completion; a job that's as careful as possible in the context of not having a generous amount of time to put it together; or having to make a plan that's been substantially but not completely disrupted by circumstances (e.g., a key unit transferred out of area without the plan being known or clearly suspected) work sooner than it would have taken to put it back together completely.

These aren't conspirators with the luxury of perfecting plans so much that they're near certain to succeed or not worth the bother to try. At a time they cannot do too much to put off or even predict, they may be arrested, tortured, and killed, and any number of loyal personnel and innocent bystanders killed too. So setting it off under less than ideal circumstances (in any number of ways) is almost inevitable.

JeffEngel wrote:

Randomiser wrote:Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

The possibilities aren't exhausted by the fully prepared, carefully planned attempt with every chance of success and the half-hearted, half-baked attempt. A prominent third possibility may be something in between: a hurried implementation of a careful plan in progress that needed more time for completion; a job that's as careful as possible in the context of not having a generous amount of time to put it together; or having to make a plan that's been substantially but not completely disrupted by circumstances (e.g., a key unit transferred out of area without the plan being known or clearly suspected) work sooner than it would have taken to put it back together completely.

These aren't conspirators with the luxury of perfecting plans so much that they're near certain to succeed or not worth the bother to try. At a time they cannot do too much to put off or even predict, they may be arrested, tortured, and killed, and any number of loyal personnel and innocent bystanders killed too. So setting it off under less than ideal circumstances (in any number of ways) is almost inevitable.

The most probable scenario for setting off a coup attempt would be the defeat of the last TL armies, probably the Harchongians which crowds Clyntahn into having the inquisition take over the jihad, a possibility mentioned in HFQ. Sinse Duchairn and Magwair know that they wouldn't survive this, they just as well go for it. In that context, implementing their coup plans wouldn't be marked by the assurance of success nearly so much as by desperation.

Don

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Randomiser wrote:Sniper range is very interesting and all, but I don't really see how it's very relevant to Maigwair and Duchairn displacing the inquisitors in charge of Zion. Symmyns will simply be relieved by order of the Captain General if he is thought to be unreliable and arrested if he refuses. No one will be allowed to semaphore Zion about what is happening and all the iceboats are part of the logistics chain, i.e. run by Duchairn's people. Yes, Clyntahn's guards will be specially chosen and warned, so will the rather larger number of the Temple Guard who will be taking them out. Come on people, either Maigwair and Duchairn are going to have a try at doing this properly or they will leave it severely alone. In this endeavour, certainly, 'There is no try, only do"

I'm not sure I see this happening, but many of the objections assume a half-hearted, half-baked attempt that we definitely will not see.

The ice-boats are part of the courier chain, not the logistics one. The books specifically state that once winter sets in, Zion is cut off from outside supply. I doubt that there are sufficient iceboats to transport 3000 troops, never mind 30000. In addition to which at the very least the captains are members of the temple guard.