Expressions of Manticoran wealth

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Every day - Seafood is flown from the seacoasts into Detroit (and other Middle America cities) for distribution. We find can find pretty much any kind of fresh fruit, vegetable, or meat at any time of the year in a local store anywhere in America at "reasonable" prices. Backing that is billions upon billions of dollars of transportation infrastructure that allows that logistical planning to happen so I can eat fresh Argentinian grapes in February - I don't own any of that infrastructure - but almost every piece of food I eat takes advantage of it. And that's one sign of affluence in a civilization.

Flights aren't just moving seafood to the middle American cities, there are also daily flights shuttling seafood between coasts. So pretty much any US city has access to the local seafood of every coast; whether inland or located on one of those coasts themselves.

For Detroit and Ann Arbor, The fish is unloaded in the early AM, on ice but not frozen, loaded on a plane on ice but not frozen, and flown in, to be served at the same time as it would have been served in Boston...NEVER FROZEN!

Food is actually one of the things that seems to have become a non-issue in the honorverse. Even on OFS protectorates people seem to eat fairly well. Remember the scene where Firebrand is meeting with the rebels in that hole in the wall restaurant, the food sounded pretty tasty. Even the poorest people of the explored galaxy seem like they eat well by contemporary first world standards.

Of course, Montanan beef sells for amazingly high prices on Terra--so the whole moving luxury foods thing is still in place

I'm a reasonably well off citizen of a developed country, and have everything I need and most of what I want. A very well off person may have a Mercedes instead of my Mazda, and designer clothes rather than department store gear. However they spend a lot more money to live very little better than I do. A currently extremely rich person would possibly have a personal executive jet and a large yacht, but once again his day to day enjoyment would not be significantly higher than mine.

What I'm fumbling to say is that not all very well off people flaunt it. Honor is embarrassed by her two mansions, but accepts that they are mainly as big as they are, to house her staff to run her businesses.

I'd imagine that Manticoran wealth is expressed mostly as security. You'd not want for food, shelter, education, the best medical care, opportunities to have interesting multiple careers, and lots of toys. If all are well off, then living large with bling would be seen to be vulgar, and nouveau riche, or petit bourgeoisie.

Air cars would be common, but wouldn't be as expensive as helicopters are today, and a fair number of people have personal helos now.

GabrialSagan wrote:Food is actually one of the things that seems to have become a non-issue in the honorverse. Even on OFS protectorates people seem to eat fairly well. Remember the scene where Firebrand is meeting with the rebels in that hole in the wall restaurant, the food sounded pretty tasty. Even the poorest people of the explored galaxy seem like they eat well by contemporary first world standards.

They do. You need to have suffered some serious technological regression that's not alleviated by time, effort, and expense yet to have a planet that cannot support adequate diets with some genuine appeal too for the vast majority of people.

There are probably some places out there that do have a combination of insufficiently recovered technology, poor agriculture and/or distribution, and such grinding poverty at the margin that food IS an issue. But those places are off-screen for the series' action nowadays. OFS protectorates do need a tech base and a labor base advanced and fed well enough to serve transtellars. Getting them that much isn't that hard and probably IS one of the thing OFS does right, but that still won't apply to the genuinely poorest sorts who are still recovering from neo-barbarism out beyond the reach of the League.

Grayson, 30 years ago, despite being two weeks' travel by wormhole from the Core (!), was only then digging out from it, after centuries of work, and even then made the last leap only because it found itself between two advanced powers gone to war. It did have it a lot worse than most places when it comes to food growing, but comparable problems if not quite as bad aren't likely astronomically rare, and it did have going for it a location that certainly wasn't remote.

And I'm sure there are Medusans and tree-cats who would be suffering malnutrition and hunger if not for Manticoran aid. There may even be some who aren't getting it, out of deference for native culture.

Manticoran children are richer than the adults on many planets.

The true measure of Manticoran wealth is in the flaunts of their kids.

My very first car at 16 was a brand spanking new Volvo that I purchased with my own money and many adults were needlessly (IMO) and jealously pissed that a 16-yr-old would be driving a car like that.

They didn't realize that I, on the other hand, hated the car. It looked like a boxy tank! Which was why my parents INSISTED that ALL first cars had to be a Volvo -- take it or leave it. BECAUSE THEY ARE TANKS. Then after a year or two experience you could get what you wanted -- with your own cash. I could afford to buy my OWN car at 16 -- but still had to drive that tank! Only difference, is it was at least a new tank. Unlike my siblings.

What I wanted at 16, was an Alfa Romeo. Or a Porsche 924.

My parents said fine if I wanted to kill myself, driving a fast sports car with the experience of a newly minted teenage driver, but I wasn't going to be killing any of my sisters or cousins who at times would be riding with me.

jchilds wrote:What about personal/private spacecraft(yachts), either interplanetary or interstellar? Are they more common in Manticore than elsewhere?

Honor has sailboats on Sphinx, Manticore and Gryphon. I doubt they're cheap ones.

drothgery wrote:

cthia wrote:One would also suspect, that someone in the aircar has to be a licensed driver. I suspect, it's the one behind the wheel.

Here on Earth, companies are beginning to experiment with cars that drive themselves. But that technology does not, should not, can not be expected to replace a licensed driver.

There's a school of thought that says that a mostly self-driving car (one that's expected to rely on human backup in emergencies, but can otherwise handle itself) is probably more dangerous than an entirely human-driven car OR an entirely automated car, because if the car can normally drive itself, you're not going to be paying enough attention to take over fast enough when you need to.

We've sort of seen that with airplanes. Do you remember the pilot and co-pilot who overshot the airport by one or two hundred miles (which is, what, 15 to 30 minutes) because they both fell asleep?

It's hard for us as readers to get a feel for what constitutes expressions of wealth in the Old Star Kingdom, in Honor's time or in Stephanie's time either. Lately in Honor's time we haven't been in the weeds enough to really get a feel for what's going on. Honor is very wealthy, although her net worth must have taken a bad hit when the Blackbird yards were destroyed. Stephanie's family is well off, although some of her friends are just scraping by. Honor doesn't really care about money; she has enough and plenty more; she is too focused on her career or the mission at hand.

I guess the closest we've seen to the struggling class is the steader family (from Grayson) in the last Honorverse collection who had a feckless youth as family head, two girls making a living as strippers, and a midship(wo)man -- sorry y'all it's late, and I can't find it on my computer.

We don't really see the tacky rich people because we mostly see the dedicated naval officers and politicians. Obviously, the Young family is an exception to this generalization; they are several notches below tacky. Some of their wealth is (or was) spent in depravity; some in legal fees; some in the pursuit and exercise of power (spies and assassins, eg). In short, they spend their money on themselves.

The Hauptmans are uber rich and Klaus Hauptman spent a few novels being a heavy who threw his weight around and spent his money making money. Now he spends his money helping out Torch--and making money too. His daughter buys newspapers.

I think the point about the infrastructure made earlier is spot on. Long before Honor's time, it's just there. You order what you want off the net and it's at your door in a day or two at most unless it's very rare and has to be specially made or obtained off world from, say, Beowulf.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:I remember yesteryear when I was a newly hired member of an Engineering firm. We were all sitting around drinking coffee or hot chocolate when I read the specs on a new offering of automobile safety that was slated to save lives. Gas airbags! All the new rave. "They'll really work with a reaction time of a few milliseconds and deploy at an astounding 200 mph!"

"What?!" I nearly jumped out of my seat. "This tech is going to kill people. A lot of people!"

It turns out that about the same number of little kids get killed every year by their parents accidentally leaving them in their car than were killed by airbags when they rode in the front seats....

That's sad and unfortunate... no doubt.

Let's ask the kid. No one ever asks the kid.

Mom's only going shopping at the local grocer. Dad's going to the baseball game. Little Johnny loves baseball. However, the little kid will be given all of the facts.

"Hey Johnny, wanna go to the grocer with me? I might forget that you're in the car and leave you to die in the hot sun. Wanna go?"

"Hey Johnny. Wanna go with me to the baseball game? You love baseball. Hey, get a load of this new gas airbag system. Your mom doesn't have this. 'WHOOSH!' "

" Mom! Dad's gonna need an ambulance! Stat!"

In some instances, airbags have exploded with dangerous force, shooting shrapnel into the car.

Airbag systems were deploying and seriously injuring people in a recent stink when the cheap plating and parts were being blown into the car at 200 mph! Loss of an eye, stitches and several deaths thus far.
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2014/06/23/ ... e-airbags/

Several deaths thus far.
http://www.autonews.com/article/2014102 ... akata-ties

Airbag recall expected to be the largest in US history. Over 33M vehicles affected.

Like I said, I saw this coming over twenty years ago when the tech was first introduced.

Flying shrapnel launched into the passenger compartment at nearly 200MPH?

SHRAPNEL???!

Airbags turn the inside of a car into a warzone!

If I were a kid. I'd take my chances with my mom -- who doesn't have the safety system in her car -- any old hot day!


WHOOSH!


The only survivor is the infant in the plain old baby seat in the rear, behind the passenger seat turned opposite the flying shrapnel. It still looks like a warzone to the little tyke. And he hates it that his milk bottle has just become a casualty, and though he survived it...

"Mama?"

"Da da?"

"Johnny?"

... he survived it, alone.

.