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Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)

"Hell's Gate" and "Hell Hath No Fury", by David, Linda Evans, and Joelle Presby, take the clash of science and magic to a whole new dimension...join us in a friendly discussion of this engrossing series!
Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:37 am

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I do recall. To some extent I do argue that the non-physical parts of the universe's physics change from universe to universe. Only the physical laws remain the same.

n7axw wrote:I listened to that talk that David gave to that ?readers club? A while back. He does seem to say that the physics changes from Newton. Peter, you remember the fuss I raised about it at the time...

Don

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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:47 am

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The primer cap fired for Gadriel after she understood the process of ignition and firing. It also fired for Jathmar. The difference is that Gadriel made the rifle to fire with full force and Jathmar only made it fire half-a$$.

I suspect Gadriel can organize the aether to allow the physical laws to work unaided. Jathmar's understanding organized the aether somewhat but not as well as Gadriel. Jathmar doesn't know how to use magic so his rifle worked because of his belief.

CanoeSage wrote:LATE BOOK SPOILER

PeterZ wrote:I am not sure that the physics are different in the various universes. Both Arcana and Sharona have sentient beings harness non-physical phenomena into a physical effect. Arcanans mentally harness aether into physical forces that change the physical world. Sharonans use their minds to perceive and manipulate the world around them. These Talents are largely perceptive in nature or influential to other minds. The one exception I recall is the teleportation of relatively small items. Even this Talent relates to dimensions beyond the physical ones we commonly think describes the real world in toto.

If we view sentient minds as existing beyond the physical dimensions but linked to it at the same time through our bodies and that mental dimension can influence the physical ones, we can see how all the universes share the same physical laws and yet still manifest the mental influences differently. Furthermore, the nature of how the mental dimension influences the physical world may well be a product of the sorts of mental activity the minds of that universe are engaged in. This is completely different than assuming the physical laws change from universe to universe.

Bottom line is that if the physical laws of one universe changed even in the slightest way from another, the two universes COULD NOT be as similar as the multiverse portrays. That mandates the magical and psychic phenomena to be non-physical in nature. Since these phenomena are linked to sentience, it allows for all the universe to evolve in almost identical ways UNTIL sentient beings intrude.


I like this theory and it makes a great deal of sense to me, however IMO it is directly contradicted by a scene late in the book where Sharonan weapons fail to fire in tests on Arcana Prime unless they are being fired by Jathmar or Shaylar. The primer cap doesn't ignite even with a perfectly functioning mechanism.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:38 am

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PeterZ wrote:I do recall. To some extent I do argue that the non-physical parts of the universe's physics change from universe to universe. Only the physical laws remain the same.

n7axw wrote:I listened to that talk that David gave to that ?readers club? A while back. He does seem to say that the physics changes from Newton. Peter, you remember the fuss I raised about it at the time...

Don

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What you are putting forward here makes a lot better sense than what I got out of David at the time. That seems to me to say that while physical laws can be altered by magic, Newton is still the default. Do I have what you are saying straight?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:58 am

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n7axw wrote: quote="PeterZ"
I do recall. To some extent I do argue that the non-physical parts of the universe's physics change from universe to universe. Only the physical laws remain the same.

quote="n7axw"
I listened to that talk that David gave to that ?readers club? A while back. He does seem to say that the physics changes from Newton. Peter, you remember the fuss I raised about it at the time...

Don

- /quote /quote

What you are putting forward here makes a lot better sense than what I got out of David at the time. That seems to me to say that while physical laws can be altered by magic, Newton is still the default. Do I have what you are saying straight?

Don

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What I got from the end of that episode was that it was not a matter of the physics themselves changing, it was a matter of what you believed in. If the majority believed in Newtonian physics, then that ruled, if they believed in magic, then that is what ruled.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:24 pm

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Not quite. Newton/Einstein always operates. Psychic and magical effects can counter the universe's physical laws. Aether can be applied by magic to counter inertia and gravity, but both those forces still operate and will always operate.

I believe that's why really complicated effects can't be automated and require Gifted magisters. Those effects require a mind to guide/direct the aether in offsetting all the physical forces in operation.

n7axw wrote:
What you are putting forward here makes a lot better sense than what I got out of David at the time. That seems to me to say that while physical laws can be altered by magic, Newton is still the default. Do I have what you are saying straight?

Don

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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:34 pm

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If the physical laws changed, the all sorts of things will change as well. So many things that life from a universe relying on one set of physics could not survive in a universe with sufficiently different set of physical laws. Chemical reactions are but the tip of the iceberg. If the physical laws that govern how chemistry is altered, life as we know it would have difficulty continuing.

No. Whatever the explanation for psychic and magical phenomena, they MUST be layered over a constant and continuously operating set of physical laws.

Keith_w wrote:What I got from the end of that episode was that it was not a matter of the physics themselves changing, it was a matter of what you believed in. If the majority believed in Newtonian physics, then that ruled, if they believed in magic, then that is what ruled.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by SYED   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:48 pm

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Has any one else notice that for both abilities, at least a touch of it is present in around 20% of the population. That seems like too much of a coincidence. The talent is said to be the result of being descended from a legendary figure.

I wonder if the animal conscript have their own talents, great way to mess with magic.

Are there portals underwater? I don't Romberg any mention of portals opening over open water.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by n7axw   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:56 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Not quite. Newton/Einstein always operates. Psychic and magical effects can counter the universe's physical laws. Aether can be applied by magic to counter inertia and gravity, but both those forces still operate and will always operate.

I believe that's why really complicated effects can't be automated and require Gifted magisters. Those effects require a mind to guide/direct the aether in offsetting all the physical forces in operation.



I don't see any difference between what you are saying and what I am saying here, Peter. So I guess I agree.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by Astelon   » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:04 pm

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Sharonian talents are present in about 80 percent of the population. Only about 20 percent have talents that are considered worth training.
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Re: Baen sample chapters (Spoilers)
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:13 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Keith_w wrote:
forgot about them.


It happens with age. Only I can't claim that sinse I've been doing it all my life! :lol:

Don

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As a youth, many decades ago, my mother frequently mentioned that I would forget my head if it wasn't fastened on.
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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