What Happens When The Church Runs Out Of Money?

PeterZ wrote:Therein lies the vulnerability of the CoGA. The religion purports to describe the real world activity in terms of divine intervention. So bad things happening require active intervention by divine forces to make that possible. So when heretics benefit from their heresies, they are viewed as receiving divine favor.

The CoGA is vulnerable tron Langhorne's and Bedard's brainchild of a seamless religious description of the Universe.

I just read the book of Job which knocks the theory that things going well implies divine favor right in the head. Too bad Safehold doesn't have something similar in the Writ.

Don

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Absolutely! Had the CoGA been more based on Faith and less on pure works, then the vulnerability would not be so great. That's the primary message from Job; have faith that God does have a purpose worthy of one's faith. The CoGA does not preach faith. It preaches obedience. What was the Work Saint Everahrd wrote? I believe it was on Faith and Obedience. His belief got him assassinated.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Therein lies the vulnerability of the CoGA. The religion purports to describe the real world activity in terms of divine intervention. So bad things happening require active intervention by divine forces to make that possible. So when heretics benefit from their heresies, they are viewed as receiving divine favor.

The CoGA is vulnerable tron Langhorne's and Bedard's brainchild of a seamless religious description of the Universe.

I just read the book of Job which knocks the theory that things going well implies divine favor right in the head. Too bad Safehold doesn't have something similar in the Writ.

Don

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On Obediance, iirc, was the encyclical [or whatever ] issued to justify the appropriation of the authority to appoint bishops and archbishops by the PTB in Zion. Predates Everhard by about 3 centuries; he was killed for attempting a top-down Reformation.

PeterZ wrote:Absolutely! Had the CoGA been more based on Faith and less on pure works, then the vulnerability would not be so great. That's the primary message from Job; have faith that God does have a purpose worthy of one's faith. The CoGA does not preach faith. It preaches obedience. What was the Work Saint Everahrd wrote? I believe it was on Faith and Obedience. His belief got him assassinated.

n7axw wrote:
I just read the book of Job which knocks the theory that things going well implies divine favor right in the head. Too bad Safehold doesn't have something similar in the Writ.

Don

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PeterZ wrote:Absolutely! Had the CoGA been more based on Faith and less on pure works, then the vulnerability would not be so great. That's the primary message from Job; have faith that God does have a purpose worthy of one's faith. The CoGA does not preach faith. It preaches obedience. What was the Work Saint Everahrd wrote? I believe it was on Faith and Obedience. His belief got him assassinated.

n7axw wrote:
I just read the book of Job which knocks the theory that things going well implies divine favor right in the head. Too bad Safehold doesn't have something similar in the Writ.

Don

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While the Safeholdian religion is structurally based upon Christianity (specifically the Catholic Church during medieval Europe) the religion's practices seem to have far more in common with Judaism in the sense that the Writ espouses an actual way of life. Langhorne and Bedard (and Chihiro later) had to set up things this way because the human colonists needed a guidebook for survival and colonization on an alien planet. Building the religion around commandments that helped in colonization and worked 100% of the time allowed them to both ensure survival and eliminate any questioning of the natural world around them. The key problem was always the concentration of coercive power in the hands of the Church and its corrupting effects. The "Archangels" didn't consider how much authority the Church would lose in the eyes of the colonists' descendants when that happened and didn't take the necessary steps to place safeguards against it.

But you shouldn't dismiss good works as a foundation for faith. Judaism teaches that hearts follow good deeds after all - that faith is best found with doing good works in this world (even if faith was initially absent). The trouble with CoGA is that they have been hypocritical in their practices, allowing the clergy to get away with outright murder at times and to evade responsibility for their actions. How can you demand from God's children that they adhere to God's law if you yourself violate it all the time?

Works as a means of honoring God because He loves us or works to earn His love and salvation?

The distinction is key and I believe makes the CoGA more like Islam than either Judaism or Christianity.

thanatos wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Absolutely! Had the CoGA been more based on Faith and less on pure works, then the vulnerability would not be so great. That's the primary message from Job; have faith that God does have a purpose worthy of one's faith. The CoGA does not preach faith. It preaches obedience. What was the Work Saint Everahrd wrote? I believe it was on Faith and Obedience. His belief got him assassinated.

While the Safeholdian religion is structurally based upon Christianity (specifically the Catholic Church during medieval Europe) the religion's practices seem to have far more in common with Judaism in the sense that the Writ espouses an actual way of life. Langhorne and Bedard (and Chihiro later) had to set up things this way because the human colonists needed a guidebook for survival and colonization on an alien planet. Building the religion around commandments that helped in colonization and worked 100% of the time allowed them to both ensure survival and eliminate any questioning of the natural world around them. The key problem was always the concentration of coercive power in the hands of the Church and its corrupting effects. The "Archangels" didn't consider how much authority the Church would lose in the eyes of the colonists' descendants when that happened and didn't take the necessary steps to place safeguards against it.

But you shouldn't dismiss good works as a foundation for faith. Judaism teaches that hearts follow good deeds after all - that faith is best found with doing good works in this world (even if faith was initially absent). The trouble with CoGA is that they have been hypocritical in their practices, allowing the clergy to get away with outright murder at times and to evade responsibility for their actions. How can you demand from God's children that they adhere to God's law if you yourself violate it all the time?

Back in the Reformation era, the works/faith argument was sometimes portrayed as an argument about fruit trees. One side argued that a tree became a fruit tree by bearing fruit. The other side argued that a fruit tree was already a fruit tree and that fruit came forth as a natural consequence of what the tree already is.

My own conviction lies with option two here.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Back in the Reformation era, the works/faith argument was sometimes portrayed as an argument about fruit trees. One side argued that a tree became a fruit tree by bearing fruit. The other side argued that a fruit tree was already a fruit tree and that fruit came forth as a natural consequence of what the tree already is.

My own conviction lies with option two here.

Don

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You, you, you ... Lutheran, you!

Randomiser wrote:

n7axw wrote:Back in the Reformation era, the works/faith argument was sometimes portrayed as an argument about fruit trees. One side argued that a tree became a fruit tree by bearing fruit. The other side argued that a fruit tree was already a fruit tree and that fruit came forth as a natural consequence of what the tree already is.

My own conviction lies with option two here.

Don

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You, you, you ... Lutheran, you!

Yes, I know...we all have our foibles.

Don

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Does that mean certain pre-destination arguments mean that apparently barren trees are still fruit trees and will be bearing fruit any day now.

Real soon, I'm sure.

Aaaany second.

Wait! I think a saw a fig before the tree fell.

noblehunter wrote:Does that mean certain pre-destination arguments mean that apparently barren trees are still fruit trees and will be bearing fruit any day now.

Real soon, I'm sure.

Aaaany second.

Wait! I think a saw a fig before the tree fell.

Well, if you have the faith of a mustard seed...

Don