Expressions of Manticoran wealth

We all know that Manticore is the wealthiest star nation in the explored galaxy. Based on the figures in House of Steel the average Manticoran is 4 times wealthier than the average terran circa 1900 PD (assuming I am doing the math right: Terra has five times the population of Manticore and Manticore's Gross System Product is .78 that of Terra's).

Yet in reading through the books I do not see how the life style of Manticorans differs that greatly from other peoples we encounter throughout the Honorverse saga. They have prolong as a right, but so do Havenites, Andermani, Beowulfers, and Erewhonese. The Manticorans don't appear to have lots of foreign servants the way that the wealthy nations on modern Earth do. Nor is any attention drawn to luxury items that would be rare on an average world being common on Manticore. It does appear that their infrastructure is better maintained than places like Haven or the OFS protectorates, but that only speaks to the government being wealthy, not the people themselves.

How does the life of an average Manticoran differ from that of an average Erewhonese, Anermani, Midgardian, or any other citizen of a star nation that is not choked under a brutal oppressive regime run by totalitarian oligarchs that are indifferent to the well being of the average citizen?

GabrialSagan wrote:We all know that Manticore is the wealthiest star nation in the explored galaxy. Based on the figures in House of Steel the average Manticoran is 4 times wealthier than the average terran circa 1900 PD (assuming I am doing the math right: Terra has five times the population of Manticore and Manticore's Gross System Product is .78 that of Terra's).

Yet in reading through the books I do not see how the life style of Manticorans differs that greatly from other peoples we encounter throughout the Honorverse saga. They have prolong as a right, but so do Havenites, Andermani, Beowulfers, and Erewhonese. The Manticorans don't appear to have lots of foreign servants the way that the wealthy nations on modern Earth do. Nor is any attention drawn to luxury items that would be rare on an average world being common on Manticore. It does appear that their infrastructure is better maintained than places like Haven or the OFS protectorates, but that only speaks to the government being wealthy, not the people themselves.

How does the life of an average Manticoran differ from that of an average Erewhonese, Anermani, Midgardian, or any other citizen of a star nation that is not choked under a brutal oppressive regime run by totalitarian oligarchs that are indifferent to the well being of the average citizen?

Wealth is not just measured in Manticoran dollars. What readily and quickly comes to mind is the educational system. Obviously the schools are the best that money and opulence can buy, sparing no luxury. Which extends across the board to drawing the best professors by being able to pay them lucrative salaries.

Zooming in closer to your intent, Manticoran citizens probably own their homes. Aren't in hock up to their chin and have a diverse portfolio. They are obviously able to afford to send their kids to the best schools. They all drive luxury aircars and not the Kia's. And land is measured by 100 acre lots and not acres -- because of such a small population. With your own government owning the junctions, you pay the lowest rates. And because your government is so affluent, your loans are secured with the lowest interest in the galaxy and no one has bad credit. Your businesses have the lowest rates of shipping because your government or some private Manticoran company owns the shipping lines and the junctions. I wonder if even shipping insurance is overall lower since your government can afford to insure your convoy at a much cheaper rate and at a much higher success rate. Many Manticorans citizens are living off of their interest and don't work several menial jobs and no one lives from paycheck to paycheck. Everyone can afford to vacation off planet. And everyone has been off planet and out of the system.


There are probably billionaire cities on Manticore -- the highest concentration of billionaires per acre in the universe.

Everyone eats at Cosmos whenever they want. And everyone has access to a swimming pool on the roof. The High Rises are the best designed and most expensive on any planet. Everyone is beautiful because they can afford biosculpt. They can afford the best medical care from the best medical practices in the galaxy.

Does welfare exist on Manticore?

Oh yes. Life is good standing on a balcony on Manticore.

Downside is the astronomical taxes at the moment to support the war.

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cheap, extensive land holdings is more a factor of their relatively low population, not their relatively high average income. Education is more a by-product of the government being wealthy, not the people (assuming that Manticoran schools are public institutions).

Your points on low taxes and easy flow of credit are well made, but that speaks more to how The Crown distributes the wealth, not what the citizens do with their wealth.

I see what you mean about driving luxury air cars and cheap shipping. Chances are that Manties have all the nicest things from across human space. I just wonder what those nice things are.

I just recalled a line from one of the later books when the RMN started seizing wormhole junctions, something to the effect of "Manticorans are accustomed to being far from home." That could imply that in addition to their merchant fleet and navy, Manties do a great deal of foreign travel. Tourism is a sign of opulence.

GabrialSagan wrote:cheap, extensive land holdings is more a factor of their relatively low population, not their relatively high average income. Education is more a by-product of the government being wealthy, not the people (assuming that Manticoran schools are public institutions).

Your points on low taxes and easy flow of credit are well made, but that speaks more to how The Crown distributes the wealth, not what the citizens do with their wealth.

I see what you mean about driving luxury air cars and cheap shipping. Chances are that Manties have all the nicest things from across human space. I just wonder what those nice things are.

I just recalled a line from one of the later books when the RMN started seizing wormhole junctions, something to the effect of "Manticorans are accustomed to being far from home." That could imply that in addition to their merchant fleet and navy, Manties do a great deal of foreign travel. Tourism is a sign of opulence.

Yes, but it doesn't matter why something is cheaper. Only that something is cheaper. Lower population goes to lower land costs. Lower land costs goes to a bigger budget. It prevents one from having to relocate to cities with lower property taxes and a lower cost of living as we do now here on Earth. Whatever leaves more strength to the dollar is a good thing. If the government is doing better then they will gouge you lesser.

The bottom line is what's important. And the government plays a role in your bottom line -- even for the rich. If their bottom line is much higher than average, then so to is yours.

Tourism is a sign of opulence AND a factor of education.

Pardon? Have you thought about the average American abroad on holiday? I've seen so many of them with no idea of the local language or local standards of politeness. Snapping your fingers to attract a waiter may work in parts of the US, but will result in being ignored and effectively blacklisted for service in many other countries (I've seen it happen) and calling 'hey boy, bring my bags' doesn't work in countries that regard 'boy' as a term of abuse but just gets you bad service until you leave for another hotel (I've seen that happen too). Then there's the question of prices: I've heard two Americans in Africa complaining about the cost of a local beer at a restaurant 100 miles from the nearest town (ever heard of transport costs?) and completely unaware that the beer cost them each what would be a full day's wages for the waiter. And then failing to tip the chap! Not that I excuse the typical Brit abroad, some of us are just as bad, but perhaps the education should be had at home before travelling.
Cheers
John

cthia wrote:Tourism is a sign of opulence AND a factor of education.

Good topic. Given that in my experience - my parents lived better than my grandparents, I lived better than them, and I'm often surprised as to how well my adult kids live; I'd imagine that by the Honorverse time virtually everyone in a developed planet would live far better than the Saudi Royals do now.

Perhaps they don't equate public extravagance with good taste. Not cool to be petit bourgeois?

In the books petty street crime still exists, and society still seems to have levels.

In other topics it has been discussed how despite a life and death struggle, the average Manticoran citizen doesn't seem to be personally suffering. Not like WW2 UK where food rationing was in force, and people gave up their cookware to be melted down for the war effort?

As others have said before, RFC is a master of naval strategy, and physics with a logical twist, but his economics does seem a little less well thought out.

John Prigent wrote:Pardon? Have you thought about the average American abroad on holiday? I've seen so many of them with no idea of the local language or local standards of politeness. Snapping your fingers to attract a waiter may work in parts of the US, but will result in being ignored and effectively blacklisted for service in many other countries (I've seen it happen) and calling 'hey boy, bring my bags' doesn't work in countries that regard 'boy' as a term of abuse but just gets you bad service until you leave for another hotel (I've seen that happen too). Then there's the question of prices: I've heard two Americans in Africa complaining about the cost of a local beer at a restaurant 100 miles from the nearest town (ever heard of transport costs?) and completely unaware that the beer cost them each what would be a full day's wages for the waiter. And then failing to tip the chap! Not that I excuse the typical Brit abroad, some of us are just as bad, but perhaps the education should be had at home before travelling.
Cheers
John

cthia wrote:Tourism is a sign of opulence AND a factor of education.

I'll give us both a moment of silence for those idiots. I hate them too. Literally detest them. Anyone else is welcome to join in this moment of silence for these type idiots. Screaming at them doesn't help.

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There. Done. And done. But I stand by my sentiment. But perhaps I should adjust it ever so slightly. As a whole, tourism is a sign of opulence and/or education.

As a whole. There are always going to be points outside of the curve. Especially here in America. Especially here! Why? Because they're supported by the curve of education and opulence of a system that is itself far above the curve.

Compared to many poor countries where its citizens do not get to travel even outside of their own towns, Americans live far above the average means. And that, is a function of opulence and education. NOT SO MUCH OF THE INDIVIDUAL. But because they live in a country, as Manticore, that is rich -- with privilege, with opportunity, etc. that carries them.


Because they live in a country like America. A country that gives the impression of its wealth, they are able to spend on a vacation what will feed a family of 10 or more for a year elsewhere! Even if they are not rich themselves. Even the poor in America can afford to take a vacation -- if they wanted to badly enough.

Also. You make the very big common mistake of equating education with sophistication. I've found many instances of even the "highly educated" to be bereft of manners. That's a whole nother discussion. Education does not come with the batteries included of sophistication -- that is acquired, or not, separately. It is a sophistication that should be derived at home.

In America, many are apt to win or be given vacations. Because a country of mostly educated and opulence can afford to do so. Game shows in America send many on trips. The overall education and opulence of a country.

I added [AND education] because even many who are opulent fail to see the need to travel. Some fear the unknown. I have friends who can very well afford to leave the country. But they fear boarding a plane and/or the foreign notion of foreign hospitality. Many don't feel all powerful and in control when their feet isn't solidly planted in Kansas anymore.

Did you read my Web of Honor. That poor American girl was from a very affluent family. Yet she was afraid of Romania -- of the unknown -- of the beautiful unknown. Romania is so beautiful, you can easily mistake it for being off planet. As many places on Earth. And I doubt very seriously if she ever ventured outside of the US again. She wasn't properly educated. And I'm not only speaking of the classroom type.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5101&p=125323&hilit=Romania#p125323

All Manticoran 16 yr-olds have ground cars. I seriously doubt that aircar licenses are given out until you've demonstrated your lack of ADD.

IMO, you shouldn't be able to get an aircar license until 21. Unlike here in the states when you can get a private pilot's license at 17. You can solo at 16. I certainly never signed that petition and nobody bothered to ask me.

The air cars fly themselves.