Current Arc Ending Scenarios (Spoilers?)

Isilith wrote:

n7axw wrote:
All of us might want to remember that when capture by the Soviets became inevitable, Hitler did suicide.

Don

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Or did he? Not sure if you have heard, but "Hitler's skull", that the Russians took from the grave outside the bunker... well, DNA testing has proven that the skull belonged to a woman.

From the Wikipedia entry about conspiracy theories regarding Hitler's death:

A skull fragment with a bullet-hole, found outside Hitler’s bunker and kept in Russia’s federal archives in Moscow, was for decades believed to be that of Hitler. However, in 2009 samples of the skull were DNA-tested at the University of Connecticut by archaeologist and bone specialist Nick Bellantoni and colleagues. It was found to be that of a woman aged under 40.

However, the Russians have never claimed that the skull was the main evidence, instead citing jawbone fragments and a dental bridge which were found. The items were shown to Käthe Heusermann, the long time dental assistant of Hitler's dentist, Hugo Blaschke, and long time technician Fritz Echtmann who both identified them as being Hitler's.[3] The skull fragment was found only later, in 1946, when the Soviets investigated rumours of Hitler’s survival.

If someone manages to take out Clyntahn, especially if it is done in a spectacular fashion, The Temple hierarchy will inevitably become embroiled in a massive power struggle that will remove it from day to day management of the jihad.

When that happens, individual nations are going to start finding reasons to abandon the jihad. The process will undoubtedly be very messy with local inquisitors facing odd against local forces loyal to their monarchs. Some of these nations will likely find themselves embroiled in their own civil wars.

The final result of such chaos is likely be that Charis and Siddamark may be actually be required to send an expeditionary relief force to Zion and the Temple to provide humanitarian aid to prevent a complete collapse of civil authority.

Isilith wrote:

n7axw wrote:
All of us might want to remember that when capture by the Soviets became inevitable, Hitler did suicide.

Don

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Or did he? Not sure if you have heard, but "Hitler's skull", that the Russians took from the grave outside the bunker... well, DNA testing has proven that the skull belonged to a woman.

I just googled the subject and while it's possible your assertion is correct, History Channel documentaries are suspect on the basis of presenting theory, especially conspiracy theories, on the air without adequately differentiating them from provable fact.

So color me skeptical. I would need a stronger, more creditable sourse to be convinced.

Don

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On the military side of things, I think RFC has set the stage for one final military show down as well as a rebellion in the rear in Chisholm. But the more important threads that remain unresolved are Clyntahn's fate, the political outcomes of the war, the doctrinal implications of a church defeat (or at least the Grand Vicar declaring an end to the Jihad even though the heretics are still alive and well), the Church's failing economy and what lurks beneath the Temple.

While I'm sure everyone here has some truly awful fate in mind for this bastard (myself included), I am reminded of something my grandfather told my father when he saw Adolf Eichmann put on trial in Israel: "death is too good a fate for him". The magnitude of Clyntahn's crimes is so great that executing him, even with the Punishment of Schueler, would not suffice to atone for his crimes. Yet I think RFC has pointed out that power and certainty are the two of his most prominent character traits and taking them away would likely shatter him.

But it is the Church's finances that will likely break it. Both Magwair and Duchairn know that they have to score some major victories on land next year (and in the next book) and them try to negotiate a separate peace with Siddarmark. Yet we all know Clyntahn would never stand for that since he is an "all or nothing" sort of person. That means that any sort of political resolution to the war would require Clyntahn's removal. Whatever it is that Duchairn is preparing (my money is on a large scale riot in Zion should he get arrested where the people of the city start killing anyone they suspect of being and agent inquisitor) may well accomplish this. Then again, it might fail. And regardless of all this, it's entirely possible the Mighty Host will lose badly or only manage to avoid outright defeat. So even if the fighting in the next book ends in a draw, the Church's loses as it will no longer have the money to continue fighting.

This in turn will only exacerbate the Church's fraying hold over the mainland realms. Right now, Desnair has only declared neutrality - which is bad enough (though at least they haven't gone over to Charis outright). Once the King Haarahlds show up and finish off Dohlar at sea and if Charis goes on to assault it by land over the winter, Dohlar will be out of the game (assuming Merlin doesn't get Thirsk to do something by way of a coup of some kind). Once Dohlar goes, I have a feeling the entire continent of Howard will get cut off from the Church. With Dohlar gone and the Siddarmark free of Church forces (at least in the southern theater), Silkiah will find itself in a difficult position and may decide to jump ship. South Harchong will be vulnerable to Charisian attacks by sea while the smaller kingdoms (Sodar and Delfarakh) will feel just as vulnerable.

But the bottom line is that the Church has run out of time and money while Clyntahn's policies are undermining faith in the Church with the common folk as well as the political elites around the planet. We are therefore more likely to see a surrender along the lines of Germany in WWI (suing for terms) and not WWII (outright invasion). It all depends on whether Clyntahn can be removed from power beforehand.

thanatos wrote:On the military side of things, I think RFC has set the stage for one final military show down as well as a rebellion in the rear in Chisholm. But the more important threads that remain unresolved are Clyntahn's fate, the political outcomes of the war, the doctrinal implications of a church defeat (or at least the Grand Vicar declaring an end to the Jihad even though the heretics are still alive and well), the Church's failing economy and what lurks beneath the Temple.

While I'm sure everyone here has some truly awful fate in mind for this bastard (myself included), I am reminded of something my grandfather told my father when he saw Adolf Eichmann put on trial in Israel: "death is too good a fate for him". The magnitude of Clyntahn's crimes is so great that executing him, even with the Punishment of Schueler, would not suffice to atone for his crimes. Yet I think RFC has pointed out that power and certainty are the two of his most prominent character traits and taking them away would likely shatter him.

But it is the Church's finances that will likely break it. Both Magwair and Duchairn know that they have to score some major victories on land next year (and in the next book) and them try to negotiate a separate peace with Siddarmark. Yet we all know Clyntahn would never stand for that since he is an "all or nothing" sort of person. That means that any sort of political resolution to the war would require Clyntahn's removal. Whatever it is that Duchairn is preparing (my money is on a large scale riot in Zion should he get arrested where the people of the city start killing anyone they suspect of being and agent inquisitor) may well accomplish this. Then again, it might fail. And regardless of all this, it's entirely possible the Mighty Host will lose badly or only manage to avoid outright defeat. So even if the fighting in the next book ends in a draw, the Church's loses as it will no longer have the money to continue fighting.

This in turn will only exacerbate the Church's fraying hold over the mainland realms. Right now, Desnair has only declared neutrality - which is bad enough (though at least they haven't gone over to Charis outright). Once the King Haarahlds show up and finish off Dohlar at sea and if Charis goes on to assault it by land over the winter, Dohlar will be out of the game (assuming Merlin doesn't get Thirsk to do something by way of a coup of some kind). Once Dohlar goes, I have a feeling the entire continent of Howard will get cut off from the Church. With Dohlar gone and the Siddarmark free of Church forces (at least in the southern theater), Silkiah will find itself in a difficult position and may decide to jump ship. South Harchong will be vulnerable to Charisian attacks by sea while the smaller kingdoms (Sodar and Delfarakh) will feel just as vulnerable.

But the bottom line is that the Church has run out of time and money while Clyntahn's policies are undermining faith in the Church with the common folk as well as the political elites around the planet. We are therefore more likely to see a surrender along the lines of Germany in WWI (suing for terms) and not WWII (outright invasion). It all depends on whether Clyntahn can be removed from power beforehand.

This sounds plausible, generally. I would see a WW2 sort of ending though. The rest of what you say makes a quite a bit of sense.

Don

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The gold standard for the Vicars & staff of the Gang of Four would be to constantly remind them of what their life and the world was like PRIOR to their BRILLIANT idea to wipe-out Charis. They had almost all of the power and money. They had many ways to restrain Charis without war and Merlin had no desire to start the overthrow of the Temple so quickly.

A constant reminder of this, along with the parade of the innocents that they MURDERED while they dwell in a bare cell with just sufficient food to maintain life (Clyntahn will lose weight!) would be very nice. Add to it a required listening to the ignored passages from the Writ that they so casually violated!

Charybdis wrote:The gold standard for the Vicars & staff of the Gang of Four would be to constantly remind them of what their life and the world was like PRIOR to their BRILLIANT idea to wipe-out Charis. They had almost all of the power and money. They had many ways to restrain Charis without war and Merlin had no desire to start the overthrow of the Temple so quickly.

A constant reminder of this, along with the parade of the innocents that they MURDERED while they dwell in a bare cell with just sufficient food to maintain life (Clyntahn will lose weight!) would be very nice. Add to it a required listening to the ignored passages from the Writ that they so casually violated!

I just wish that we could manage something like this for our current "emperor"!!!

Duckk says: take it to Politics.

Hmm. I can see a counter stroke on Duchairn's side if the poor in Zion rise up and kill every Inquisitor they can. It would weaken Clyntahn, especially since he has put so much of his manpower out on the street looking for OWL remotes and Helm Cleaver agents.

Thing is, though, that sort of thing is hard to prepare in advance and impossible to prepare in secret.

Expert snuggler wrote:Hmm. I can see a counter stroke on Duchairn's side if the poor in Zion rise up and kill every Inquisitor they can. It would weaken Clyntahn, especially since he has put so much of his manpower out on the street looking for OWL remotes and Helm Cleaver agents.

Thing is, though, that sort of thing is hard to prepare in advance and impossible to prepare in secret.

You might not have to do a lot of planning with large groups of people. A comparatively small group of rabble rousers in the midst of a crowd could do a lot of damage...

Another thought...Putting intendents in charge of city and temple guard units might not turn out to be a loyalty enhancing move. It is not hard to imagine dead inquisitors with guard units running amuck...

Don

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