Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker

Theemile wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:

IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.

Another point was mentioned in the text - the Zunker POV character was thinking about how much everything about their society had imporved in the last 10-15 years - medical, infrastructure, education, etc.

So Zunker is still in the remediation stage of economic growth, repairing their past ills and bootstrapping their economy. Given time, that wormhole money will foster growth in the economy, and allow the current bills paid for by the wormhole cash to be replaced by local taxes from the economy - freeing the WH fees to be used for more... "advanced" needs.

Yep. Zunker had been an 'independent' system, to insignificant for Frontier Security to incorporate (albeit they would get to it in due time) when the Idaho/Zunker bridge was discovered. Once that was established, things began to get better for Zunker (with the fair deal they got from Idaho and Manticore), and at the same time OFS came sniffing around, now that there was something of value there.

Manticore 'negotiated' with the SL/OFS and came to an agreement: Zunker would remain independent and keep their current agreements on the wormhole with Idaho/Manticore, but Manticore recognized the SL 'interests' in Zunker and allowed them to build 'embassies' (that's not the right word, but it'll do) there and have a certain amount of influence.

Which is another reason Zunker didn't want large SDF forces; not with a neighbor like the SL who were expert in finding things that would require an 'intervention'. Better the mouse that stays quiet, was their philosphy.

Of course, that is now subject to change...

cthia wrote:In which the Zunker Incident reminds me of a need to reread because I can't remember what was so important about the Solarian freighter that they'd risk a confrontation with the RMN. Of course, even if I can't account for all of the missing details in my head, I should still know that probably, it was simply the "pissing contest of a game" that arrogant navies play.

Oh what arrogant games we play when we ignorantly seek to piss our navy away.

Theemile wrote:The answer is nothing was important about that specific freighter - the local OFS sector leader wanted to show the upstart Manties who was boss, so the next freighter who wanted to use the wormhole got the 6 BC escort from the local Frontier Force contingent. The Navy wanted nothing to do with it and thought that the OFS sector leader was an idiot.

I was right. A simple pissing contest. The loser is the one who blinks while he's wetting his own pants.

Thanks Theemile. I think I'll giterdone a reread of that chapter anyways, just for entertainment purposes you see.

Theemile wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.

Another point was mentioned in the text - the Zunker POV character was thinking about how much everything about their society had imporved in the last 10-15 years - medical, infrastructure, education, etc.

So Zunker is still in the remediation stage of economic growth, repairing their past ills and bootstrapping their economy. Given time, that wormhole money will foster growth in the economy, and allow the current bills paid for by the wormhole cash to be replaced by local taxes from the economy - freeing the WH fees to be used for more... "advanced" needs.

Hutch wrote:Yep. Zunker had been an 'independent' system, to insignificant for Frontier Security to incorporate (albeit they would get to it in due time) when the Idaho/Zunker bridge was discovered. Once that was established, things began to get better for Zunker (with the fair deal they got from Idaho and Manticore), and at the same time OFS came sniffing around, now that there was something of value there.

Manticore 'negotiated' with the SL/OFS and came to an agreement: Zunker would remain independent and keep their current agreements on the wormhole with Idaho/Manticore, but Manticore recognized the SL 'interests' in Zunker and allowed them to build 'embassies' (that's not the right word, but it'll do) there and have a certain amount of influence.

Which is another reason Zunker didn't want large SDF forces; not with a neighbor like the SL who were expert in finding things that would require an 'intervention'. Better the mouse that stays quiet, was their philosphy.

Of course, that is now subject to change...

What's preventing the League from demanding a cut in the windfall? Protection costs?

cthia wrote:What's preventing the League from demanding a cut in the windfall? Protection costs?

Historically, the Manties hinted that OFS's normal behavior in the Zunker area would equate to the SL's loss of SKM Junction privileges.

Now, nothing... but the armed RMN contingent at the Zunker wormhole.

Part of the SL's attitude toward the SEM now is the SKM's (and SEM's) repeated threats of loss of the wormhole privileges when they negotiate with the League - on anything. Gonna raise transit fees on us - sorry about the wormhole. Gonna back Haven - sorry about the wormhole. Gonna sell arms to Haven - sorry about the wormhole. Gonna jack around Zunker - sorry about the wormhole. Up until the recent "unpleasantness", it's always been the stakes in the card game - an unused trump card laid out face down on the table that always got negotiations to work out more Manticore's way then the SL's.

So, the SL finally got the brass ones to call the SEM's bluff, only to find the SEM really did have the trump, was ready to play it, and had even bigger brass ones.

I guess it had to happen eventually.

cthia wrote:The retarded wiki lists the ZSN at 2 destroyers and a dozen LACs. And lists ART as the source...

The space military force of the system was the Zunker Space Navy. It was a small navy with only two destroyers and about a dozen light attack craft at its disposal. (HH13)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_System

Went to ART and looked for the exact info. While doing that I stumbled across the following
[quote='A Rising Thunder: Ch. 3"]In point of fact, the “Zunker Terminus” had been discovered by a survey crew operating out of Idaho seventeen T-years earlier. And Idaho, unlike Zunker, lay only seventy-two light-years from the Manticore Binary System—three weeks’ hyper flight for a merchant ship from the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Actually, the survey ship had been Manticoran, not Idahoan, although it had been under charter to the Idaho government at the time[/quote]So it was found 17 T-years prior to current day (I think 1922 PD; right?)

And here's what I found on the Navy

A Rising Thunder: Ch 3 wrote:All of which meant the Zunker Space Navy consisted of little more than a double handful of LACs, suitable for policing the traffic which flowed through the star system’s freight-handling and servicing facilities. The ZSN certainly didn’t possess anything remotely like a true warship, although it did assign a squadron of its LACs to Zunker Terminus Astro Control, where it worked in concert with a similar force of Idahoan vessels.

Looks like the person who edited that bit of info into the wiki got confused and somehow merged the details of the Zunker Space Navy with the Limbo Space Navy

A Rising Thunder: Ch 3 wrote:the Limbo Space Navy” consisted of two elderly destroyers—only one of which seemed to be actively in commission at the moment—and eight LACs which had to be at least fifty T-years old.

cthia wrote:What's preventing the League from demanding a cut in the windfall? Protection costs?

Nothing. In fact ART is specific that OFS is getting 2/3rds of the transit fees (or rather is says Zunker's government recieves one third of all transit-fee revenue the wormhole generated).

As to what kept Zunker at least formally independant (despite the OFS influence) - that was Manticoran Prime Minister Cromarty (back when OFS first started sniffing around) letting the Perminant Sector Undersecretary know that "Solarian transit fees through any of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction’s many termini might well experience an inexplicable upsurge if anything unfortunate were to happen to the Zunker System"; and also insisting that Zunker get that third of the transit fee revenue.

Jonathan_S wrote:<snip> Looks like the person who edited that bit of info into the wiki got confused and somehow merged the details of the Zunker Space Navy with the Limbo Space Navy.

If memory serves, the Wiki originally had copious details imported from the "Notorious list" - A fan shiplist created prior to the Great Resizing and the publication of SITS - the few correct details gleamed from the text had been expounded upon greatly to round out the designs so much that many had little relationship to what was actually in the books - especially after the Great Resizing. I believe the list had the GSN was using "Jack$$" class CLACs - (created out of broadcloth because no one had told us the class name or details yet.) The biggest problem is what was canon and what was inferred was not noted, so the whole shiplist was unusable.

I don't know how much of that is still there, but I never trust the Wiki.

Jonathan_S"quote="cthia wrote:The retarded wiki lists the ZSN at 2 destroyers and a dozen LACs. And lists ART as the source...

The space military force of the system was the Zunker Space Navy. It was a small navy with only two destroyers and about a dozen light attack craft at its disposal. (HH13)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_System

Went to ART and looked for the exact info. While doing that I stumbled across the following
[quote='A Rising Thunder: Ch. 3"]In point of fact, the “Zunker Terminus” had been discovered by a survey crew operating out of Idaho seventeen T-years earlier. And Idaho, unlike Zunker, lay only seventy-two light-years from the Manticore Binary System—three weeks’ hyper flight for a merchant ship from the Manticoran Wormhole Junction. Actually, the survey ship had been Manticoran, not Idahoan, although it had been under charter to the Idaho government at the time[/quote]So it was found 17 T-years prior to current day (I think 1922 PD; right?)

And here's what I found on the Navy

A Rising Thunder: Ch 3 wrote:All of which meant the Zunker Space Navy consisted of little more than a double handful of LACs, suitable for policing the traffic which flowed through the star system’s freight-handling and servicing facilities. The ZSN certainly didn’t possess anything remotely like a true warship, although it did assign a squadron of its LACs to Zunker Terminus Astro Control, where it worked in concert with a similar force of Idahoan vessels.

Looks like the person who edited that bit of info into the wiki got confused and somehow merged the details of the Zunker Space Navy with the Limbo Space Navy

A Rising Thunder: Ch 3 wrote:the Limbo Space Navy” consisted of two elderly destroyers—only one of which seemed to be actively in commission at the moment—and eight LACs which had to be at least fifty T-years old.

cthia wrote:What's preventing the League from demanding a cut in the windfall? Protection costs?

Nothing. In fact ART is specific that OFS is getting 2/3rds of the transit fees (or rather is says Zunker's government recieves one third of all transit-fee revenue the wormhole generated).

As to what kept Zunker at least formally independant (despite the OFS influence) - that was Manticoran Prime Minister Cromarty (back when OFS first started sniffing around) letting the Perminant Sector Undersecretary know that "Solarian transit fees through any of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction’s many termini might well experience an inexplicable upsurge if anything unfortunate were to happen to the Zunker System"; and also insisting that Zunker get that third of the transit fee revenue.[/quote]


My guess is when Manticore finds a wormhole they divide it in thirds. Like in Idaho-Zunker 1/3 goes to Idaho 1/3 to Zunker and 1/3 to Manticore. Idaho gets their cut for owning one end of the bridge. Zunker for owning the other end and Manticore gets their cut for discovering it and running the place.

saber964 wrote:My guess is when Manticore finds a wormhole they divide it in thirds. Like in Idaho-Zunker 1/3 goes to Idaho 1/3 to Zunker and 1/3 to Manticore. Idaho gets their cut for owning one end of the bridge. Zunker for owning the other end and Manticore gets their cut for discovering it and running the place.

On further investigation I think you're right. I'd assumed that the 1/3rd being mentioned was 1/3rd of the fees charged at the Zunker end of the wormhole; with 1/3rd of those going to Zunker and 2/3rd to OFS but a couple things I turned up seem to contradict that and support your guess.

1) The OFS commissioner for the Genovese Sector (which includes Zunker) was unhappy because the agreement Manticore bluntly forced onto the League "deprived him of his custom-hallowed rake-off from the terminus’ lucrative use fees."
That could just be bitching because the precentage was less; but likely not. Also I'd forgotten

2) "The Zunker Terminus was officially the territory of a Manticoran ally" (Idaho). It's far enough out that it's in international waters and can be claimed and controlled by whoever discovers it. So it seems Idaho (backed by Manticore) would have been within their rights to have taken 100% of the direct transit fees and left Zunker only with whatever ancillary business they could drum up from the increased through traffic.


So those 2 little points, while not 100% conclusive, do lead me to support your guess and think that Weird Harold misremembered about Zunker's percentage going up as a result of Laocoon. (I think that applied to some of the actual OFS protectorates whose adjacent wormholes were seized; and not to Zunker. At Zunker they didn't seize the wormhole, instead the Idaho owned wormhole was legally closed to League ships and it's existing sovereignty was defended when FF, on orders of OFS, attempted to force a reversal of that decision)

Essentialy Manticore, using the velvet gove of Diplomacy (being an part owner of the Zunker Terminus of the Idaho-Zunder wormhole) to tell the SL that OFS was NOT going to move in on the now (because of the newly discovered wormhole) much more attractive potential ecomomic situation at Zunker and either take it over or assist in the instilation of a puppet government there. Manticore had the ship which did the exploring under contract with Idaho and Idaho with Manticore under the initial and then later contractual agreements (perhaps also treaty deals) hold both ends of the wormhole.

OFS has perhaps some "offices" on Zunker, but no overt control and OFS- and it's local sector governor (the one who isn't getting what he preceives is his rightfull cut/graft) are getting something for the "protection" they provide Zunder. We, the readers, clearly see the ONLY interest OFS now has (probably zilch before the wormhole) in the system is the income stream from transit fees with the wormhold. It now draws traffic to Zunker from other places as a feeder access/shortcut to the Manticore Junction. Theoreticialy OFS through FF is to keep the area safe and free from pirates and that plus some "administrative costs" allows them to get some slice of Zunkers end of the transit fees.

I expect that Manticore would have some representation on Zunker that is monitoring OFS maneuvering to change the mix but we don't (yet) see anything actually developing. The presumption is that Manticore could have hinted to the SL that it might start it's own anti-piracy patrols (Manticore to Idaho then Zunker and out along the developing trade routes leading TO Zunker) if FF didn't patrol the areas in justification of what OFS would have been extorting from Zunker. At least they had to work for it, but Manticore wouldn't let them take over the system and it was a relatively fair deal for the limited hypercapable anti-piracy patrols even if we don't /haven't been shown/ see any current or historic pirate activity.

On the other hand- this was a side "away from" the war with PRH and Manticore didn't want to station anti-piracy warships there if FF would actually do the job.

Idaho may or may not have a significant little SDF. No mention of it. But it does have obligations with Manticore at least on the ownership and, apparently, operation of the wormnole. With Lacoon II, Manticore parked that squadron at the Zunker end (and we presume added their own ships or at least reenforced the Idaho SDF at Idaho. If for no other reason than to block a wormhole shortcut to a different tactical approch to Manticore from the direction of Idaho.

Zunker has two or perhaps 3 old (impeller in-system probably 40 years old or worse than current SL type "old" LACs which are essentally armed customs enforcement boats. IF (always a big IF) FF was actually doing anti-piracy work in that relative area, there shouldn't have been a need for Zunker hyper-capable ships even if they could afford them. Zunker sounds like a place that now has a chance to drag itself up by it's bootstraps with the income of the wormhole and develope it's own economy if nobody moves to bleed it dry (as OFS and friends are wont to do).

The Zunker LAC commander did exactly what he could do when the FF BC squadron showed up to force the passage- get the hell away from giants with the really big and long range weapons and stay alive to be able to keep doing his job.