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Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker

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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by saber964   » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:10 pm

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cthia wrote:When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore? Incidentally, Zunker has a terminus. So why isn't it financially able to afford a larger navy than two destroyers and a dozen Lacs?

And, if they are Manty allies, why didn't Manticore give Zunker whatever they wanted of those captured SLN ships?



Zunker was not allied Manticore. Manticore is allied with the other terminus system Idaho.

Also Zunker only has LAC's no DD's. IIRC Z is deep in the SL and has no real need for any bigger navy and their educational system probably can't support a larger navy at this point in time.
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:32 am

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saber964 wrote:
cthia wrote:When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore? Incidentally, Zunker has a terminus. So why isn't it financially able to afford a larger navy than two destroyers and a dozen Lacs?

And, if they are Manty allies, why didn't Manticore give Zunker whatever they wanted of those captured SLN ships?



Zunker was not allied Manticore. Manticore is allied with the other terminus system Idaho.

Also Zunker only has LAC's no DD's. IIRC Z is deep in the SL and has no real need for any bigger navy and their educational system probably can't support a larger navy at this point in time.

I didn't think they were allies either. At least I didn't recall getting the on-chip memo.

And with logic following implication, if they are allied with the 'Core, then they need a bigger navy.

I let wiki dupe my impressionable self again. Just call me the wiki-flunky. Cliff notes never let me down this way. We need Honorverse cliff notes.

The Zunker Incident occured in 1922 PD, in the early stages of the Solarian-Manticoran War.

A Solarian League Navy task force of six battlecruisers, under the command of Frontier Fleet Rear Admiral Liam Pyun, attempted to escort a Solarian-flagged merchant vessel through a wormhole nexus in the Zunker System (an ally of the Star Empire of Manticore) after the Star Empire had closed the nexus to SLN and Solarian League-flagged commercial traffic as part of Case Lacoön. The nexus was defended by a Royal Manticoran Navy task force of heavy cruisers and destroyers under Captain Hiram Ivanov, who was able to deter the Solarians without any loss of life. (HH13, HH14)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_Incident

Note to self:
Self, stop being the wiki-flunky.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:40 am

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In which the Zunker Incident reminds me of a need to reread because I can't remember what was so important about the Solarian freighter that they'd risk a confrontation with the RMN. Of course, even if I can't account for all of the missing details in my head, I should still know that probably, it was simply the "pissing contest of a game" that arrogant navies play.

Oh what arrogant games we play when we ignorantly seek to piss our navy away.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:43 am

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cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore?


I let wiki dupe my impressionable self again. Just call me the wiki-flunky. Cliff notes never let me down this way. We need Honorverse cliff notes.

The Zunker Incident occured in 1922 PD, in the early stages of the Solarian-Manticoran War.

A Solarian League Navy task force of six battlecruisers, under the command of Frontier Fleet Rear Admiral Liam Pyun, attempted to escort a Solarian-flagged merchant vessel through a wormhole nexus in the Zunker System (an ally of the Star Empire of Manticore) after the Star Empire had closed the nexus to SLN and Solarian League-flagged commercial traffic as part of Case Lacoön. The nexus was defended by a Royal Manticoran Navy task force of heavy cruisers and destroyers under Captain Hiram Ivanov, who was able to deter the Solarians without any loss of life. (HH13, HH14)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_Incident

Note to self:
Self, stop being the wiki-flunky.


IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.
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.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:32 am

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Weird Harold wrote:IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.
Also RFC said somewhere that the reason we hadn't heard of the Idaho-Zunker wormhole bridge prior to Laocoon is that it was fairly recently discovered (sometime after the start of the war with Haven) and Idaho somewhere was out behind Manticore when looked at from Haven. So the book's attention was elsewhere.

Even Idaho probably hadn't built up much of a navy with only 10-15 years of wormhole fees to work with; and as you point out OFS was sucking up the Zunker fees so they were in an even worse position to build their fleet. (Even assuming OFS/FF would allow them to)
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:58 am

cthia
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saber964 wrote:
cthia wrote:When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore? Incidentally, Zunker has a terminus. So why isn't it financially able to afford a larger navy than two destroyers and a dozen Lacs?

And, if they are Manty allies, why didn't Manticore give Zunker whatever they wanted of those captured SLN ships?



Zunker was not allied Manticore. Manticore is allied with the other terminus system Idaho.

Also Zunker only has LAC's no DD's. IIRC Z is deep in the SL and has no real need for any bigger navy and their educational system probably can't support a larger navy at this point in time.



The retarded wiki lists the ZSN at 2 destroyers and a dozen LACs. And lists ART as the source...
The space military force of the system was the Zunker Space Navy. It was a small navy with only two destroyers and about a dozen light attack craft at its disposal. (HH13)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_System

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:25 am

cthia
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Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore?


I let wiki dupe my impressionable self again. Just call me the wiki-flunky. Cliff notes never let me down this way. We need Honorverse cliff notes.

The Zunker Incident occured in 1922 PD, in the early stages of the Solarian-Manticoran War.

A Solarian League Navy task force of six battlecruisers, under the command of Frontier Fleet Rear Admiral Liam Pyun, attempted to escort a Solarian-flagged merchant vessel through a wormhole nexus in the Zunker System (an ally of the Star Empire of Manticore) after the Star Empire had closed the nexus to SLN and Solarian League-flagged commercial traffic as part of Case Lacoön. The nexus was defended by a Royal Manticoran Navy task force of heavy cruisers and destroyers under Captain Hiram Ivanov, who was able to deter the Solarians without any loss of life. (HH13, HH14)

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Zunker_Incident

Note to self:
Self, stop being the wiki-flunky.


Weird Harold wrote:IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.

Thanks.

As it reads, I think you actually meant "more?"

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:34 am

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cthia wrote:In which the Zunker Incident reminds me of a need to reread because I can't remember what was so important about the Solarian freighter that they'd risk a confrontation with the RMN. Of course, even if I can't account for all of the missing details in my head, I should still know that probably, it was simply the "pissing contest of a game" that arrogant navies play.

Oh what arrogant games we play when we ignorantly seek to piss our navy away.



The answer is nothing was important about that specific freighter - the local OFS sector leader wanted to show the upstart Manties who was boss, so the next freighter who wanted to use the wormhole got the 6 BC escort from the local Frontier Force contingent. The Navy wanted nothing to do with it and thought that the OFS sector leader was an idiot.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:35 am

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cthia wrote:As it reads, I think you actually meant "more?"


Yeah, I did. :(
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker
Post by Theemile   » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:39 am

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Weird Harold wrote:

IIRC, the wiki is not completely wrong. After Manticore took control of the wormhole, they kicked the solarians out and made a deal with Zunker directly. It was NOT a formal alliance, just a memo of understanding that Zunker would receive the same percentage of transit fees that Manticore shares with other co-owners of termini. A percentage that is significantly less than the local OFS Governer allowed -- which answers your question of why they didn't have a bigger Navy; they weren't getting rich off the wormhole, the OFS was.


Another point was mentioned in the text - the Zunker POV character was thinking about how much everything about their society had imporved in the last 10-15 years - medical, infrastructure, education, etc.

So Zunker is still in the remediation stage of economic growth, repairing their past ills and bootstrapping their economy. Given time, that wormhole money will foster growth in the economy, and allow the current bills paid for by the wormhole cash to be replaced by local taxes from the economy - freeing the WH fees to be used for more... "advanced" needs.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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