Late 1921 PD SLN Raid Planning - Zunker

drothgery wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:(It's worth noting that Filareta was no idiot by SLN flag officer standards - people who want the SLN "first team" to show up should wrap their head around the idea that they really don't get much better than him. They're getting, slowly, more informed, but if you want real tactical skill and leadership quality, you should be looking at Luis Roszak and he's not going to be gunning for the GA.)

Filareta was regarded by his peers (who were largely unaware of his personal issues) as a below-average fleet commander. He was much more capable than Crandall or Byng. That doesn't mean he was good, even for the SLN.

Certainly he was regarded poorly afterward. Do you - does anyone - have textev of opinions of him beforehand? I don't, but my impression is that the Filareta-as-idiot opinion came almost entirely after that affair. I'd like to have that impression firmed up or cast aside.

People do revise their memories to match what they think and believe later, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't at work in opinions of Filareta's skill level, or even Crandall's.

JeffEngel wrote:

drothgery wrote:Filareta was regarded by his peers (who were largely unaware of his personal issues) as a below-average fleet commander. He was much more capable than Crandall or Byng. That doesn't mean he was good, even for the SLN.

Certainly he was regarded poorly afterward. Do you - does anyone - have textev of opinions of him beforehand? I don't, but my impression is that the Filareta-as-idiot opinion came almost entirely after that affair. I'd like to have that impression firmed up or cast aside.

People do revise their memories to match what they think and believe later, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't at work in opinions of Filareta's skill level, or even Crandall's.

All right, found a bit in the ARC of A Rising Thunder - not the only place to search, but probably the best single one. (Edit - crud, these are from Mission of Honor, not ART.)

Al-Fanudahi thinks his qualification for command is pretty much having a pulse - but that he's still smarter than Byng or Crandall. Captain Al-Fanudahi may not be exactly a peer of Fleet Admiral Filareta though, and tends to have a bad opinion of everyone in Battle Fleet.

Admiral John Burrows, Filareta's chief of staff, thinks that Filareta had "established a reputation for hard work, levelheadedness, and attention to detail that matched both his imposing physical presence and his expensive tastes." (Chapter 38)

Albrecht Detweiler thinks Filareta is "probably clever enough to have at least a few suspicions about how Crandall came to be placed where she was". (Chapter 41) (And, from chapter 38, he's right.)

So far as that goes, anyway, Massimo Filareta certainly doesn't stand out as a mediocre or worse example of the SLN's senior officer corps.

Bits of opinion of Filareta from ART (really!) -
Burrows again - who, as Filareta's chief of staff, probably has one of the closest views of Filareta's merits but of course one with its own biases - "[Filareta was] one of the handful of truly senior officers who were actually competent." That's not ringing praise, but it also suggests that there are few or no SLN senior officers who are any better in Burrows' view. "He was hardworking, levelheaded, and paid attention to the details all too many other flag officers simply ignored or shoveled onto their overworked staffs." There's nothing to speak of there regarding specifically tactical acumen, but, alas, for a Battle Fleet chief of staff, that's probably something both never tested and not of great interest.

Kolokoltsov, to himself, thinking about what's likely to happen to Filareta in Manticore: "Besides, everything I've been able to dig up on Filareta suggests he's at least four or five times as smart as Crandall was.... If the Manties really are in a position to chew him up and spit him out, he's smart enough to stand down on his own rather than get his fleet killed for nothing." That's probably the best summary we're going to get of the consensus of his peers as to his competence: what Kolokoltsov can dig up is going to be more representative than Al-Fanudahi's opinion. And remember that Daoud isn't comparing Filareta to other senior Battle Fleet officers as such - he's got a lousy estimate of Filareta, but that doesn't mean he's got much better of one of any other senior fleet commander in BF. Burrows certainly didn't either.

Honor herself: "Filareta seems to be several cuts above the Sollies we've seen in Talbott." That says very, very little, of course - much like Kolokoltsov's 4x-5x estimate of Filareta's smarts relative to Crandall's. But then again, Crandall wasn't the very bottom of the barrel among the SLN officer corps, and 4-5 times or several cuts better than that isn't going to be among their worst by a long shot. Later: "Whatever the rest of the Solarian League Navy might think, Filareta was unlikely to reject reports of Manticoran technological superiority out of hand." That puts him well above average for SLN flag officers - even Frontier Fleet ones - in ONI's estimate as considered by Honor, at least in terms of not suffering from SLN arrogance and overconfidence.

And that's about what I can find. The worst of it is Al-Fanudahi's opinion. I don't really dispute it; I just think it should be considered in the perspective of what Al-Fanudahi (or Burrows, or everyone on the GA side) thinks of the rest of the Battle Fleet field commanders. Having nothing to recommend them but a pulse either is just about right, which makes the worst pre BOM2 assessment of Filareta's skills no criticism of him at all relative to the other SLN fleet commanders.

Actually, considering the subject of brains in Old Chicago, that MAlign plant Caswell Gweon gave Kolokoltzov pretty good analysis. He can't really be counted sinse his loyalties really aren't to the League.

Al-Fanduhi and the group meeting clandestinely seened well enough endowed, although one wonders if they are in a position to do any good.

Amongst BF officers, Kingsford seemed to be tumbling to reality in his conversation with Kolokoltzov. He was at least rubbing brain cells together and getting spark. That would have to be regarded as a start to thinking...

I think, though, if you had to put together a competent navy for the League, you probably have to start in Frontier Fleet. FF has some operatuonal experience connected to real life and not just doing feel good analysis for political admirals.

Maybe start with someone like Thurgood from Meyers, except I imagine he's still a guest of honor in a Manty POW camp.

Don

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n7axw wrote:Actually, considering the subject of brains in Old Chicago, that MAlign plant Caswell Gweon gave Kolokoltzov pretty good analysis. He can't really be counted sinse his loyalties really aren't to the League.

Al-Fanduhi and the group meeting clandestinely seened well enough endowed, although one wonders if they are in a position to do any good.

Amongst BF officers, Kingsford seemed to be tumbling to reality in his conversation with Kolokoltzov. He was at least rubbing brain cells together and getting spark. That would have to be regarded as a start to thinking...

I think, though, if you had to put together a competent navy for the League, you probably have to start in Frontier Fleet. FF has some operatuonal experience connected to real life and not just doing feel good analysis for political admirals.

Maybe start with someone like Thurgood from Meyers, except I imagine he's still a guest of honor in a Manty POW camp.

Don

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The only problem with FF is experience. They have plenty of experience with policing duties and planetary subjection. They are experienced ship handlers and can swat pirates and divisions of ships fron non-peer navies with ease.

But... they have zero experience above division or squadron sized encounters. See Roszak's reactions at Torch- he is probably one of the more experienced FF commanders and that "tussel" was his first serious battle. Let's face it, by haven sector standards, Torch was a serious raid, nothing more.

FF has no experience even there. Even fleet screening is a by the book exercise.

Theemile wrote:

n7axw wrote:Actually, considering the subject of brains in Old Chicago, that MAlign plant Caswell Gweon gave Kolokoltzov pretty good analysis. He can't really be counted sinse his loyalties really aren't to the League.

Al-Fanduhi and the group meeting clandestinely seened well enough endowed, although one wonders if they are in a position to do any good.

Amongst BF officers, Kingsford seemed to be tumbling to reality in his conversation with Kolokoltzov. He was at least rubbing brain cells together and getting spark. That would have to be regarded as a start to thinking...

I think, though, if you had to put together a competent navy for the League, you probably have to start in Frontier Fleet. FF has some operatuonal experience connected to real life and not just doing feel good analysis for political admirals.

Maybe start with someone like Thurgood from Meyers, except I imagine he's still a guest of honor in a Manty POW camp.

Don

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The only problem with FF is experience. They have plenty of experience with policing duties and planetary subjection. They are experienced ship handlers and can swat pirates and divisions of ships fron non-peer navies with ease.

But... they have zero experience above division or squadron sized encounters. See Roszak's reactions at Torch- he is probably one of the more experienced FF commanders and that "tussel" was his first serious battle. Let's face it, by haven sector standards, Torch was a serious raid, nothing more.

FF has no experience even there. Even fleet screening is a by the book exercise.

Agreed. But at least what they do is connected to real life. That tends to stimulate the synapses of the brain is a different way than if all you do is simulations and games, nothing more.

Don

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Another part of my concern for what the SLN is going to do is driven by the fix the Mandarins and the SLN Senior Leadership should have started thinking about as they scramble to keep the wheels from comming off between Manticore/GA having smashed Filerta and the pending problem with Beowulf.

That Beowulf has decided to take a vote on secede from the League - and not wait for the expected and obvioius (to anyone with a modicum of League Politcal Sense) hatchet job on Beowulf and the vast range of nasty things that they could inflict on the system in punishment for both 1) threatening to leave the League and 2) helping the League's enemy in a time of defacto war, - has got to have the Mandarins and the SLN brass looking to where they are going to need ships and political muscle whatver happens with Beowulf's plebecite.

The best case for the Mandarins it that they nulify by "whatever means" any actual vote to leave and then deal with the clean-up of the mess the recent previoius government of Beowulf caused. They are still going to have to show to the League at large and all those Protectorates and non-League systems that you can't mess with the League. That posture- even if they crush the present Beowulf government- is going to be very thin and probably rest soley on the ability of the League to continue to enforce it's rules and regulations plus demonstrate it has the physical force to do it.
You should imagine a Buracracy and an SLN that can cause a lot of problems if you step out of line but is becoming increasingly unable to bring the former massive forces to focus on problems because it is running out of money, and is having to commit too much of it's military (almost uselessly) against signicantly more capable foe.

Worst case Beowulf votes to go, there is a military and political debacle (and catastrophe with civlilain deaths) and the League's wheels start to actually fall off.

Question, can wormholes be destabilized for a serious length of time; months? If so to whose advantage would that be, military-wise?

npadln wrote:Question, can wormholes be destabilized for a serious length of time; months? If so to whose advantage would that be, military-wise?

No, they can't. A maximum-mass transit through the largest known wormhole only locks it down for a day or so. And that applies only to the bridge used - for example, 30 SDs jumping simultaneously from Trevor's Star to Manticore would lock that bridge down, in either direction, for something like 19 hours, but it wouldn't affect the other bridges to/from Beowulf, Basilisk, etc..

When did Zunker become an ally of Manticore? Incidentally, Zunker has a terminus. So why isn't it financially able to afford a larger navy than two destroyers and a dozen Lacs?

And, if they are Manty allies, why didn't Manticore give Zunker whatever they wanted of those captured SLN ships?