Prolong and relationships

cthia wrote:A criminal's relationship with the justice system might have to change. Life + 100 years still might eventually set him free.

Or even two consecutive life sentences. Seeing that 100 years is considered to be life.

I don't think Manticore would have that problem, since they're probably comfortable shooting someone they'd otherwise lock up for that long. Though that's based on an aside about their feelings on adjustment as a punishment.

cthia wrote:A criminal's relationship with the justice system might have to change. Life + 100 years still might eventually set him free.

Or even two consecutive life sentences. Seeing that 100 years is considered to be life.

In Echoes of Honor, where the court-martial board is sentencing StateSec personnel for violations of their own regs on Hades, a Citizen Lieutenant Mangrum gets twenty-five years for second-degree rape, fifty for kidnapping, and two for abuse of authority, to run consecutively for a total of 77 years hard labor, without possibility of parole.

According to the Honorverse Wiki, prolong gives a lifespan of up to 300 years. If you consider 100 years for a non-prolong person, you would need to triple non-prolong punishments for prolong recipients. Mangrum's sentence would be 25.6 years in a non-prolong society.

cthia wrote:A criminal's relationship with the justice system might have to change. Life + 100 years still might eventually set him free.

Or even two consecutive life sentences. Seeing that 100 years is considered to be life.

The problem is that any crime that would get you a "life" sentence in the Honorverse would likely get you executed instead. Look at the sentence handed down in EoH. IIRC the StateSec goon was sentenced to 72 T-year's in prison and Randy Stielman was looking at probably over a century of incarceration for his crimes. Also the death penalty is swiftly administered in the Honorverse none of this 20 or 30 years on death row crap with appeal after appeal. At most, when a death sentence is handed down 6 months to a year later the sentence is carried out.

saber964 wrote:

cthia wrote:A criminal's relationship with the justice system might have to change. Life + 100 years still might eventually set him free.

Or even two consecutive life sentences. Seeing that 100 years is considered to be life.

The problem is that any crime that would get you a "life" sentence in the Honorverse would likely get you executed instead. Look at the sentence handed down in EoH. IIRC the StateSec goon was sentenced to 72 T-year's in prison and Randy Stielman was looking at probably over a century of incarceration for his crimes. Also the death penalty is swiftly administered in the Honorverse none of this 20 or 30 years on death row crap with appeal after appeal. At most, when a death sentence is handed down 6 months to a year later the sentence is carried out.

Interesting.

Do you suppose there are planets with governments that don't have capital punishment -- that may be more in favor of a corporal type punishment? I can conceive of a planet out in the Verge, that might not have the death penalty. The League has probably framed too many people through the ages -- to topple governments and/or noncompliant citizens that aren't compliant. *(See Solarian/Beowulf Plan)

The smarter white collar Manticoran criminals would probably do their crimes and then relocate to a planet that doesn't have prolong. Whose sentences probably still reflect those of pre-prolong days. Indeed, If I were an opportunistic criminal, I'd seek out a prolong and capital punishment free planet to settle.

I wonder if all planets have signed an extradition treaty.

*Death or conviction has a way of shaping non-compliance into compliance.

I wonder if you could argue that at some point a death sentence if carried out relatively quickly would be more humane then some one spending centuries behind bars.


No Extradition treaty may be more dangerous for a crook because your fate is at the whim of the local government. They may find that it is in that governments interest to simply hand you over. An extradition treaty will have rules on how and if some one can be turned over. Also extradition treaties or a lack of one only work when it is not worth the effort of a stronger power to simply send in commando unit to get the person their after.

pnakasone wrote:I wonder if you could argue that at some point a death sentence if carried out relatively quickly would be more humane then some one spending centuries behind bars.


No Extradition treaty may be more dangerous for a crook because your fate is at the whim of the local government. They may find that it is in that governments interest to simply hand you over. An extradition treaty will have rules on how and if some one can be turned over. Also extradition treaties or a lack of one only work when it is not worth the effort of a stronger power to simply send in commando unit to get the person their after.

Of course there's the funny quotes in Crown of Slaves about the Erewhonese life imprisonment, or Ruth & Berry's surmised but improbable but mildly afeared stay in the Chateau d'if...

Most developed countries don't have capital punishment now, so I'd imagine that that trend would continue. Other SF writers have suggested wind wipe or psychological adjustment in long lived societies.
For serious offenders (mass murderers, drug king pins, spammers, etc) I'd tend to favour a variation of Hades, with unisex colonies on hidden planets for outlawed criminals. They didn't value being part of a modern society (where all serious need had been eliminated) so drop them off with a spade and seed and let them get on with it.

pnakasone wrote:I wonder if you could argue that at some point a death sentence if carried out relatively quickly would be more humane then some one spending centuries behind bars.

I suppose in this vein of thought it would depend on the exact particulars of the case. And just might be a subjective consideration.

Assuming that one does have benefit of prolong. One might rather quickly choose -- rather spend -- a couple of centuries in incarceration in lieu of a quick death sentence.

OTOH, where a life sentence is literal, then you very well have a point. With the caveat, that inhumane may be part of the intended punishment. See Hades. I wonder if all involved would have chosen death over Hell? Certainly not the ones who outlasted the sentence and returned to society.

No Extradition treaty may be more dangerous for a crook because your fate is at the whim of the local government. They may find that it is in that governments interest to simply hand you over. An extradition treaty will have rules on how and if some one can be turned over. Also extradition treaties or a lack of one only work when it is not worth the effort of a stronger power to simply send in commando unit to get the person their after.

You certainly have a point here as well. Although, another serving of caviar in in order (my niece equates caveat with caviar because she says that s'times they both stink. Cute, methinks.) My original suggestion was that some savvy criminals may pick planets for their subjective lenient nature. Likewise, here on Earth, it is crazy for a criminal to choose to traffic drugs in Central America, South America and Southeast Asia where the punishment is much more severe. Whereas it is death in some countries, like China where execution is the result of trafficking some drugs. In Vietnam, drug crimes are taken very seriously. If you are arrested with more than 1.3 pounds of heroin, you will automatically be executed. Even drunk driving is punished much more harshly in Malaysia.

So I agree that the no extradition policy may cut both ways, but I suggested that a savvy criminal may have checked the sharpness of the knife before committing crimes there.

References:
http://drugabuse.com/the-20-countries-w ... the-world/

Daryl wrote:Most developed countries don't have capital punishment now, so I'd imagine that that trend would continue. Other SF writers have suggested wind wipe or psychological adjustment in long lived societies.
For serious offenders (mass murderers, drug king pins, spammers, etc) I'd tend to favour a variation of Hades, with unisex colonies on hidden planets for outlawed criminals. They didn't value being part of a modern society (where all serious need had been eliminated) so drop them off with a spade and seed and let them get on with it.

Which is the point of my post upwind. Corporal punishment in lieu of capital punishment. Such as Hades -- a corporal type punishment.

Though corporal punishment could border the inhumane, I somehow rather doubt PETA's influence inside the concrete jungle.

An aside:
Is the prolong treatment reversible? If so, that could be a punishment in itself. Or an additional punishment.

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Regarding "An aside:
Is the prolong treatment reversible? If so, that could be a punishment in itself. Or an additional punishment."

As I said earlier someone who has really gone beyond the pale has given up the right to benefit from an advanced society. That includes everything from - protection from others by the state, to freedom from essential needs, up to ongoing medical treatment. My understanding is that prolong gives people the potential to live beyond two centuries. It wouldn't fix specific illnesses, or damage from being a pioneer on a primitive planet. Little things like broken bones, staph infections, or just being eaten would happen long before the two centuries.

My solution means that no civilised person has to live with the fact that they directly executed another sentient being in cold blood. End result is the same with a bit of panic and running built in.