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Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention this

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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by dscott8   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:19 am

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zuluwiz wrote:If somebody held a gun to my head and told me I just HAD to use That Damn Weapon in a story, my way would be to finagle a message into Sollie Intelligence (Warning: Oxymoron Detected!) that the Manties were planning to recommission all the captured Sollie SDs, equipping them with very long-range Grav Lances. This must be done subtly, (without any visible smirking), maybe through the auspices of some Beowulfan "League faithful". Then sit back and watch the ISLN jump through flaming hoops to try and figure out a countermeasure for a weapon that does not exist. THAT is the way I would use That Damn Weapon in a story (with a gun to my head). And yes, we do want the Sollies thinking that there are people on Beowulf who want to remain in the League, and are willing to pass information to the League secretly. That's how you deceive the opposition in a war.


This is exactly the plot of "Running Blind" by Desmond Bagley, a cold-war novel in which an agent is set up to lose a classified device to the Russians -- a device that looks like a secret weapon but doesn't do anything -- with the objective of tying up Russian R&D trying to answer a nonexistent question. Good read, like much of Bagley's work.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:05 pm

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If anything, I'd expect some form of sidewall penetrator that would in essence be a weak "-lance", and the likelihood is that only Manticoran tech could pull it off. Something to the effect of "hitting the sidewall with a dozen of these just before the shipkillers arrive".

Remember, a sidewall has multiple generators, so just burning out a couple nodes in the sidewall with whatever the max output a Mk-23 level missile reactor can put out might be researchable. That gives the sidewall killing missiles a 100K standoff range.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by munroburton   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:52 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:If anything, I'd expect some form of sidewall penetrator that would in essence be a weak "-lance", and the likelihood is that only Manticoran tech could pull it off. Something to the effect of "hitting the sidewall with a dozen of these just before the shipkillers arrive".

Remember, a sidewall has multiple generators, so just burning out a couple nodes in the sidewall with whatever the max output a Mk-23 level missile reactor can put out might be researchable. That gives the sidewall killing missiles a 100K standoff range.


I doubt it. The range of a laser head is around 50-85,000km, down from the 300-400k of a shipboard laser. A shrunk-down grav lance would need to be, based on that ratio, within 20,000km to make an effective hit.

The 100k range is based on a grav lance powered by an all-up starship with multiple fusion reactors and full-scale impeller rings. Reduce that to one microfusion reactor and tiny missile rings and you'll certainly lose most of what little range there is.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:08 pm

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munroburton wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:If anything, I'd expect some form of sidewall penetrator that would in essence be a weak "-lance", and the likelihood is that only Manticoran tech could pull it off. Something to the effect of "hitting the sidewall with a dozen of these just before the shipkillers arrive".

Remember, a sidewall has multiple generators, so just burning out a couple nodes in the sidewall with whatever the max output a Mk-23 level missile reactor can put out might be researchable. That gives the sidewall killing missiles a 100K standoff range.


I doubt it. The range of a laser head is around 50-85,000km, down from the 300-400k of a shipboard laser. A shrunk-down grav lance would need to be, based on that ratio, within 20,000km to make an effective hit.

The 100k range is based on a grav lance powered by an all-up starship with multiple fusion reactors and full-scale impeller rings. Reduce that to one microfusion reactor and tiny missile rings and you'll certainly lose most of what little range there is.
Well, that's why I included the "if anything", plus the "cruiser weight" grav lance dropped the whole sidewall but the reactos had to still powering the ship, inertial compensator, life support, backup systems, etc.. Still, you're likely right, although I have different ranges for the other weapons, only about 30K for the laser heads and 600K for grasers. I guess the question reduces to sans those other power requirements, does one "pulse power" moment from those micro-fusion reactors have enough potential to burn out or substantially reduce the effect of one or more single sidewall generators. RFC is likely the only one that knows the answer to that question at present.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Grashtel   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:31 pm

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SharkHunter wrote: Well, that's why I included the "if anything", plus the "cruiser weight" grav lance dropped the whole sidewall but the reactos had to still powering the ship, inertial compensator, life support, backup systems, etc.. Still, you're likely right, although I have different ranges for the other weapons, only about 30K for the laser heads and 600K for grasers. I guess the question reduces to sans those other power requirements, does one "pulse power" moment from those micro-fusion reactors have enough potential to burn out or substantially reduce the effect of one or more single sidewall generators. RFC is likely the only one that knows the answer to that question at present.

He has told us the answer to grav lance missiles, it can be summed up as "No". Plus as laser heads penetrate sidewalls anyway there isn't really any need for something to knock the target's sidewalls down
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:16 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:If anything, I'd expect some form of sidewall penetrator that would in essence be a weak "-lance", and the likelihood is that only Manticoran tech could pull it off. Something to the effect of "hitting the sidewall with a dozen of these just before the shipkillers arrive".

Remember, a sidewall has multiple generators, so just burning out a couple nodes in the sidewall with whatever the max output a Mk-23 level missile reactor can put out might be researchable. That gives the sidewall killing missiles a 100K standoff range.


Seriously... A weapon stated to need a reactor powering it that is big enough to need a ship whose size you count in KILOTONS, is not going to do much with the power from a reactor mounted in a missile that is measured in TONS.

And the exact same logic applies to wedgestrength.

It´s already been stated over and over that LACs are FAR too small and weak in power for a gravlance to work off of it at all. Missiles are magnitudes smaller still.

So it´s ultimate fail squared.
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Annachie   » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:34 am

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dscott8 wrote:I'm going to suggest grav-lance mines for system defence. Mix them with laser head mines. The grav lance mine goes off first, strips the target's defences, and the laser head finishes it off.

Given the proviso that it can't be done, as an inner ring of mines it would work a treat.

Remember that they would possibly fire as the enemy wedges were comming up so might not need to be as powerful as the only one we werevever shown.
So that might, might, change the size of the source vessle somewhat.

And personally, Sonya strikes me as the type to never, ever, let an idea die. She'd be tinkering with both the design and concept until well after she is dead.

One way or the other she will be vindicated/validated?
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by cralkhi   » Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:30 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:And hey, he WAS supposed to have some sneaky long-ranged plan in mind for them! Maybe that's it! Grav-ram torpedoes! The signature weapon of the coming age of war.


I suggested this once for Detweilers, going with the assumption that they will be incredibly huge (fort sized plus) they might be able to carry pre-war CL sized torpedoes ;)
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by niethil   » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:51 am

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cralkhi wrote:
JeffEngel wrote:And hey, he WAS supposed to have some sneaky long-ranged plan in mind for them! Maybe that's it! Grav-ram torpedoes! The signature weapon of the coming age of war.


I suggested this once for Detweilers, going with the assumption that they will be incredibly huge (fort sized plus) they might be able to carry pre-war CL sized torpedoes ;)


CL-sized boarding torpedoes :)
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Re: Horrible thought - I can't believe I'm going to mention
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:01 am

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SharkHunter wrote:If anything, I'd expect some form of sidewall penetrator that would in essence be a weak "-lance", and the likelihood is that only Manticoran tech could pull it off. Something to the effect of "hitting the sidewall with a dozen of these just before the shipkillers arrive".

Remember, a sidewall has multiple generators, so just burning out a couple nodes in the sidewall with whatever the max output a Mk-23 level missile reactor can put out might be researchable. That gives the sidewall killing missiles a 100K standoff range.


Contact nukes had a sidewall penetrator built it - but it only created a localized opening that allowed the nuke to slide through the sidewall by matching the sidewall "phase" - however, even these were problematical, as sidewalls tended to vary their phase specifically to counter penetrators and generators overlapped with different sidewall settings to do the same, so a penetrator may pass through the outer, exposed sidewall, but not the next sidewall.

Contact nukes could also be used to remove sidewalls in their "burn" setting, where they went off in contact with the sidewall in the attempt to burn out the generator.

There never was a missile penetrator technology which caused an entire sidewall to blink, as much as it may be wanted.
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