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Why are there still Satellites?

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Why are there still Satellites?
Post by Charybdis   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:53 pm

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We find Merlin making good use of observation/weather satellites in orbit around Safehold from OAR on. The query is are these left from the Langhorne Archangels or were they put into place by the Alexandrian faction?
(OAR pg 600) Of course, he didn’t know Cayleb, courtesy of Lieutenant Merlin Athrawes, had the benefit of satellite reconnaissance.
An argument for the former is that Commodore Pei Kau-yung did not know of the OBS/Rakurai until it was used against the Alexandria Enclave. Logically it would indicate that the presence of the Rakurai was "blanked out" OR ELSE these observation/weather satellites are in lower orbit than the Rakurai.

We know that the Rakurai System was emplaced by Langhorne et.al. and then enhanced with a bodyguard of "area-defense weapons and sensors" thousands of kilometers in diameter after the Lake Pei strike. Logically this would mean that the observation/weather satellites are an accepted system to the Rakurai since they still exist after 9+ centuries. Otherwise, like the stealth passive probe launched by O.W.L. in OAR that was destroyed thousands of kilometers from the actual platforms, they would have been destroyed for mere intrusion into protected space.
(OAR pg 173) Another SNARC had attempted to penetrate the defended perimeter under maximum stealth, only to be detected and destroyed while it was still thousands of kilometers from the platforms.
The contra-argument to this would be why do they still exist and function without the Archangels? Like the rest of the high-tech, it would have been logical for the last active member of Langhorne's survivors to either destroy or put into hibernate mode. An argument here might be that they serve a supplementary function to the Rakurai or Temple and its Servitors. In this case would not a monitor and lock function also be present that would then betray Merlin's use?

An argument for the Alexandrian Faction is that Merlin & O.W.L. obviously has the protocols to use their output without any apparent problem. This indicates that these observation/weather satellites are downloading their data to Nimue's Cave site. This also argues that their orbit clears that large sphere surrounding the Rakurai and its solar-power sats. However how did the Alexandrians manage to keep it going even AFTER the addition of the 'protection' that appears to be actively sweeping when the emplacement had to be PRIOR to the Langhorne/Alexandrian split?

Rereading is so much fun - but the questions arise!
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:03 pm

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Charybdis wrote:We find Merlin making good use of observation/weather satellites in orbit around Safehold from OAR on. The query is are these left from the Langhorne Archangels or were they put into place by the Alexandrian faction?
(OAR pg 600) Of course, he didn’t know Cayleb, courtesy of Lieutenant Merlin Athrawes, had the benefit of satellite reconnaissance.
An argument for the former is that Commodore Pei Kau-yung did not know of the OBS/Rakurai until it was used against the Alexandria Enclave. Logically it would indicate that the presence of the Rakurai was "blanked out" OR ELSE these observation/weather satellites are in lower orbit than the Rakurai.
I imagine the Rakurai could be outside weather satellite observation by being above them (weather sats needn't stargaze, after all) or by being the sort of thing that weather satellites do not report on. Effectively, satellite sighting would just be edited out from weather sat reports before they ever reach a human or smart AI because, for weather purposes, they are uninformative. So either or both of those possibilities would be pretty much what you'd expect.

We know that the Rakurai System was emplaced by Langhorne et.al. and then enhanced with a bodyguard of "area-defense weapons and sensors" thousands of kilometers in diameter after the Lake Pei strike. Logically this would mean that the observation/weather satellites are an accepted system to the Rakurai since they still exist after 9+ centuries. Otherwise, like the stealth passive probe launched by O.W.L. in OAR that was destroyed thousands of kilometers from the actual platforms, they would have been destroyed for mere intrusion into protected space.
(OAR pg 173) Another SNARC had attempted to penetrate the defended perimeter under maximum stealth, only to be detected and destroyed while it was still thousands of kilometers from the platforms.
For that matter, the Rakurai could tap into the weather sats and use them for surveillance - if the weather sats are going to be there anyway, and collecting data the OBS can use, may as well use them. It'd make the system that much lower profile to escape detection by either Pei and their people beforehand. That goes for the original OBS, of course, but the second and current OBS could make use of the same system for the sake of simplicity.
The contra-argument to this would be why do they still exist and function without the Archangels? Like the rest of the high-tech, it would have been logical for the last active member of Langhorne's survivors to either destroy or put into hibernate mode. An argument here might be that they serve a supplementary function to the Rakurai or Temple and its Servitors. In this case would not a monitor and lock function also be present that would then betray Merlin's use?
There would have been no need for that for the original weather sat system when Safehold and its command crew were supposed to be one big happy family, and the only people able to tap the weather sats for information. There may have been some point in that during the War Against the Fallen. Maybe that generation of weather sats were lost in the war: if they served either side at all better than they did the other, the less advantaged side wouldn't have any reason to let them live if they could bring them down. If the current satellites are a post-War set, then again there wouldn't've been a worry by Chihiro and friends about someone else tapping them so security for them would be unnecessary.

For that matter, it's possible that no one thought of weather satellites as a military tool at all. They'd've had them for hundreds of years. They help you tell what weather is. It's like worrying about the military applications of dandelions. And when it comes to security in conflict, their experience prior to the Alexandria Strike was the Gbaba, who probably were not hacking weather sats for surveillance. If that's the case, maybe the way to defeat the Rakurai is to launch something dangerous that fits a weather sat profile, to re-program weather sats to collide with the OBS, and/or to piggyback a cyberattack on them through the weather sat neighbors.
An argument for the Alexandrian Faction is that Merlin & O.W.L. obviously has the protocols to use their output without any apparent problem. This indicates that these observation/weather satellites are downloading their data to Nimue's Cave site. This also argues that their orbit clears that large sphere surrounding the Rakurai and its solar-power sats. However how did the Alexandrians manage to keep it going even AFTER the addition of the 'protection' that appears to be actively sweeping when the emplacement had to be PRIOR to the Langhorne/Alexandrian split?

Whatever is keeping them going - assuming they aren't so long endurance that they simply haven't yet run down - is likely the same sort of automated maintenance/repair/replenishment keeping the OBS and Temple going. If the weather sats are integrated into the OBS, it could be the very same systems. Otherwise, it could be the very same sorts of systems, as innocuous as far as the OBS is concerned as the weather sats themselves.

I think we can be sure they weren't something identified with the Alexandrians, else they'd've been smacked. And we can be pretty confident that they were not built in an era when they were thought of as a strategic asset and when there were multiple known high-tech factions on Safehold: they would have been secure or been destroyed in that case.

Another possibility - unless there's something I don't remember to contradict it, I'm only using the Mark I (at best) human brain here - is that they were placed recently by OWL or Merlin, and that they aren't smacked by the OBS because they are that stealthy. It's the combination of stealth, payload and range that have defeated attacks on the OBS so far. If the weather sats are of a size that could not possibly have armaments with the range and destructiveness to threaten the OBS, they may be stealthy enough to share Safehold orbit with it safely.
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:32 pm

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The weather sats were probably placed by the terraforming team - what weather is coming is a very useful thing to know and there would have been no good reason to remove them - the Alexandria enclave would have liked to monitor the weather and so would the command crew in Zion. During the War of the Fallen, this would have remained true, both sides would have found weather reports useful. As for why they didn't notice the original OBS being placed, we should remember that there was a lot of stuff floating around in the space around Safehold so the weather satellites were either programmed to ignore that stuff, because they had no impact on the weather, or the satellites were in Low Safehold Orbit and don't look up to see what in Geosynchronous Safehold Orbit.

As for the OBS, as far as we actually know, based on the two reports that we have, it was entirely "manually" operated, that is, it did not do target selection, it received it's targets from the control station and launched at those co-ordinates. For all Merlin's fears, there have been no strikes that we know of against proscription breakers. We know there were multiple strikes during the WatF, because the strike against St. Khody's abbey was the last known one, which implies that there were others during the war.

As a result of these ruminations through my Mark I human brain, I don't think there was any reason to expect the OBS to blow the weather satellites out of the sky.

PS, is Geosynchronous the correct term for staying over the same spot over Safehold?
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:38 pm

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My first impulse would be to think that Owl and Merlin put the weather sats in place. But I don't have any textev for it, or for that matter anything but a hunch.

Don
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:04 pm

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n7axw wrote:My first impulse would be to think that Owl and Merlin put the weather sats in place. But I don't have any textev for it, or for that matter anything but a hunch.

Don


I would tend to agree. Seems the Snarcs are more than capable of doing a weather satellite job and are designed not to be spotted by TF level Tech. The only ones that we know got blown away were those which actually tried to closely approach the OBS. I've always assumed that's just because no Stealth technology is perfect and it would get easier to breach the closer the intruding device got.

Seems a simpler assumption than arguing everything the TF built was self maintaining for a thousand years.
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by Keith_w   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:51 pm

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Randomiser wrote:
n7axw wrote:My first impulse would be to think that Owl and Merlin put the weather sats in place. But I don't have any textev for it, or for that matter anything but a hunch.

Don


I would tend to agree. Seems the Snarcs are more than capable of doing a weather satellite job and are designed not to be spotted by TF level Tech. The only ones that we know got blown away were those which actually tried to closely approach the OBS. I've always assumed that's just because no Stealth technology is perfect and it would get easier to breach the closer the intruding device got.

Seems a simpler assumption than arguing everything the TF built was self maintaining for a thousand years.


The OBS wasn't built by the TF and it has been, why shouldn't weather satellites be?
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by evilauthor   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:23 pm

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OWL explicitly has its own remotes and/or satellites. Once such was a communication relay for OWL's comm net that spotted the Hairatha Mill explosion. If a mere communication relay (albeit a stealthed one) can spot a powder mill explosion, then keeping an eye on the weather would be no problem either.

Also, Nimue's Cave has an industrial module. If OWL and Merlin need their own satellites, they can MAKE THEM.
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:27 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
Randomiser wrote:Seems a simpler assumption than arguing everything the TF built was self maintaining for a thousand years.


The OBS wasn't built by the TF and it has been, why shouldn't weather satellites be?

The OBS needed to keep going on its own; for weather sats, that'd've been an optional extra. If it's not a cheap, simple optional extra, they may reasonably have skipped it.

On the other hand - RFC seems to write in ragnarok-proof technology as almost a matter of course, so we may be mislead by our own familiarity with (e.g.) cell phones that are anything but that. Also, Safehold's original weather sats were put up by Pei Shan-wei's crews who were assuming Safehold would retain one or more high technology enclaves forever and eventually rebuild technology across the planet. If weather sats with an attached independent eternal maintenance system would be cost-effective (and hey, zero replacement may well be, for the TF) then they may have done that as a matter of course. A later replacement, even for "temporary" Chihirite use may have been built the same way out of engineering habit. The TF surely didn't have the same resources we do; their habits, choices and expectations surely wouldn't be the same either.
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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by n7axw   » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:03 pm

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Keith_w wrote:
The OBS wasn't built by the TF and it has been, why shouldn't weather satellites be?


No reason, although I would note that the OBS was built with TF tech. Still, that doesn't negate your point that they could have been built locally, obviously by the command crew. After all, if the OBS and the mystical features of the Temple could be maintained a thousand years, why not weather sats?

My comment previously was only a hunch... for what it may or may not be worth.

Don

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Re: Why are there still Satellites?
Post by Louis R   » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:18 am

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AAMOF, the reason that the weather sats - which are frequently in Molniya or similar long-period polar orbits, since you need to get a good look at the polar regions - wouldn't have seen the OBS is that there was nothing to see until a very short time before it was used. Himself was quite explicit about this:

Why was Kau-yung surprised by the orbital bombardment system? wrote:To that end, the OBS was also built under high conditions of secrecy in one of the modules aboard the flagship commanded and staffed by people personally loyal to Langhorne. Its existence was concealed not just from Kau-Yung, but from everyone outside Langhorne's immediate close circle of utterly trusted subordinates, and it wasn't deployed from inside the module in which it had been built until literally no more than a very few hours from when it was used. As a result, there was no real "window" in which Kau-Yung might have seen what was coming and taken steps to prevent it.


And, currently, 'geosynchronous' is not the correct usage - you're supposed to insert the correct designator prefix in place of geo. However, it's already becoming common enough as a generic term that I wouldn't be surprised to see it become the accepted meaning in another century or two.

Keith_w wrote:The weather sats were probably placed by the terraforming team - what weather is coming is a very useful thing to know and there would have been no good reason to remove them - the Alexandria enclave would have liked to monitor the weather and so would the command crew in Zion. During the War of the Fallen, this would have remained true, both sides would have found weather reports useful. As for why they didn't notice the original OBS being placed, we should remember that there was a lot of stuff floating around in the space around Safehold so the weather satellites were either programmed to ignore that stuff, because they had no impact on the weather, or the satellites were in Low Safehold Orbit and don't look up to see what in Geosynchronous Safehold Orbit.

As for the OBS, as far as we actually know, based on the two reports that we have, it was entirely "manually" operated, that is, it did not do target selection, it received it's targets from the control station and launched at those co-ordinates. For all Merlin's fears, there have been no strikes that we know of against proscription breakers. We know there were multiple strikes during the WatF, because the strike against St. Khody's abbey was the last known one, which implies that there were others during the war.

As a result of these ruminations through my Mark I human brain, I don't think there was any reason to expect the OBS to blow the weather satellites out of the sky.

PS, is Geosynchronous the correct term for staying over the same spot over Safehold?
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